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Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

javacodegeeks.com

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Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#71

Post by baha_man »

bonch wrote: post #61
recoiledsnake wrote: post #17

> Java, with its faults, has completely conquered web application programming. On the sidelines, charging hard, new languages are being invented at a rate that is mind-blowing, to also conquer web application programming. The two are pitted together, and we’re left with what looks a bunch of preppy mall-kids battling for street territory by break dancing. And while everyone is bickering around whether PHP or Rails 3.…

The problem with C# is that it's tied to Microsoft, and we're already seeing what can come of that with developers wondering if .NET is a first-class Windows 8 development platform or has been relegated to legacy status and supplanted by HTML5. Microsoft is remaining silent.

"The problem with C# is that it's tied to Microsoft..."

What about Mono?

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#72

Post by cpt1138 »

Periodic wrote: post #43
michaelochurch wrote: post #22

I'm going to cite Steve Pavlina here: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/how-to-get-from-a-7... Some snippets: A 7 seems very close to a 9 or 10, but often a 7 is a local maximum — you can’t get any higher by continuing to follow the same path that got you to that 7 in the first place. A 7 is pretty good. At this level you feel generally content. It’s OK, fine, acceptable, satisfactory. What you’ll find when yo…

I'm reminded of the first time I tried out Ruby on Rails. I had done some PHP, Perl, C, and Java programming before that. I had worked on some medium sized projects, but in general anything larger than a few dozen files got so complicated it was hard to keep track of. Then I saw what a really good OO design was like. I learned what real separation of concerns and encapsulation could do. It was an epiphany that the pr…

What about the language you are using enforces real separation of concerns and encapsulation that Java doesn't have?

Seems to me that those principals are not a quality of a language per se but of design principles that can be applied to any language (maybe some easier than others).

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#73

Post by [deleted] »

spullara wrote: post #53
rb2k_ wrote: post #41

I always had the impression that people that say they 'hate Java', usually don't hate "Java: the language". Most people that dislike programming in Java have a negative sentiment because of: - the usage of XML (or now: annotations) to configure all of the tiny parameters that nobody really cares about - a class hierarchy in which you have to jump to 20 levels of inheritance to get to where you want to go - that a lot…

Java is so popular, easy to learn and use that there are tons of terrible frameworks and bad programmers in the community. Rebel against it all you want but in the hands of great developer you can get pretty amazing software written in Java like Hadoop, HBase, Lucene, Cassandra, etc. Java is the assembly language of the JVM and since most of the cooler new languages are on the JVM (and written in Java often) it will…

[deleted]

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#74

Post by anonymoushn »

bfung wrote: post #59
anand21 wrote: post #5

#Using Java for serious jobs is like trying to take the skin off a rice pudding wearing boxing gloves. -- Tel Hudson #Of all the great programmers I can think of, I know of only one who would voluntarily program in Java. And of all the great programmers I can think of who don't work for Sun, on Java, I know of zero. -- Paul Graham #Java is the most distressing thing to happen to computing since MS-DOS. -- Alan Kay #J…

any of them write a more successful language than Java? or how about Visual Basic even? For all the complaints, at least Java moved programming technology to another level on a massive scale, lest we all be complaining about C/C++ still.

Java seems to be mostly a step backwards from C++ in terms of expressiveness, with kludges here and there to hide the fact. Because the kludges are very slow, I have had significantly less luck optimizing Java than C++.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#75

Post by jshen »

spullara wrote: post #53
rb2k_ wrote: post #41

I always had the impression that people that say they 'hate Java', usually don't hate "Java: the language". Most people that dislike programming in Java have a negative sentiment because of: - the usage of XML (or now: annotations) to configure all of the tiny parameters that nobody really cares about - a class hierarchy in which you have to jump to 20 levels of inheritance to get to where you want to go - that a lot…

Java is so popular, easy to learn and use that there are tons of terrible frameworks and bad programmers in the community. Rebel against it all you want but in the hands of great developer you can get pretty amazing software written in Java like Hadoop, HBase, Lucene, Cassandra, etc. Java is the assembly language of the JVM and since most of the cooler new languages are on the JVM (and written in Java often) it will…

I don't think those are examples of great software. They are very useful, and many fill a niche that needed filled, but they aren't great software IMO. Hadoop is a very leaky abstraction to give one example. I've seen it crash frequently because people used wild cards for their input and the job tracker would run out of heap and crash.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#76

Post by justincormack »

wickedchicken wrote: post #56

Since there are many languages that now target the JVM, I guess my main distrust should be targeted towards that instead of the language itself. Can someone explain to me what the advantage of running on the JVM is compared to something else (including native code generation)? From what I understand it provides: native tuned GC, stable and tuned JIT, and a class/module mechanism revolving around reusable code librari…

The JVM allows commercial software to be usefully cross platform. If you are working with open source or scripting/jitted/non compiled languages this doesnt matter. Compiled C or C++ code was hard to get for the right architecture and work with.

But it makes no difference for open source, hence the Linux coders disdain for VM languages, and it makes no sense with Python or Ruby where you interpret the source. And native JIT makes more sense now, the JVM being a bad language to write a JIT compiler for, as it loses a lot of important information.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#77

Post by czDev »

There a lot of powerful frameworks in Java that make application development fun and easy (e.g. Camel, Spring, Hibernate). Java can replicate many of the popular features of other languages - anonymous functions are duplicated by single-method interfaces and anonymous inner classes. I say use the best tools available, and Java has still got to be one of those.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#78

Post by rch »

knowtheory wrote: post #35
rch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly identify with your point, but I actually had the opposite reaction to this article; particularly the second half. I started my career working on 'serious' software, then switched to web applications for a few years, and have recently settled into building multi-faceted, research-oriented systems -- and throughout the entire experience, I have consistently found myself having to apologize for the hype and…

Right but there's a difference between hype and experimentation with new tools and methodologies. Cargo-culting is never a good idea. But to say that new and better techniques have not come out of (or been popularized by) new movements in software and business is simply false. The stodginess and perhaps arrogance of academic and deeper research posts are just as obnoxious and hobbling as novelty-chasing unprincipled…

My concern, one that I believe I share with the author, is that the zero-sum tenor of tech-community discourse is overshadowing the more fundamental advances (and setbacks) that we could be focused on. And the attitudes of what seems to be a generation of edit-line/update-browser developers is only making it that much more difficult to drag those advances into established industries.

I am genuinely disappointed with the present state of affairs, and therefore more willing to wade through an ocean of arrogance to find some intellectual merit.

There's so much to do...

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#79

Post by anonymoushn »

Jeema3000 wrote: post #39

I wonder... how many programmers have been exposed to enough different problem domains and languages to really make an accurate judgement on what is "the best programming language", if any such thing even exists (which I doubt). Maybe the reason you hate some feature of a language because you've never been exposed to a problem domain where that feature would be required. I mean how many of us can honestly say that we…

I don't hate the features that are there, I hate the features that are missing. Most languages I know let you express vector without an external library, but the libraries that ship with this language only let you express vector, which is significantly different. It doesn't provide coroutines or continuations, while even C++ does.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#80

Post by MrMan »

spullara wrote: post #53
rb2k_ wrote: post #41

I always had the impression that people that say they 'hate Java', usually don't hate "Java: the language". Most people that dislike programming in Java have a negative sentiment because of: - the usage of XML (or now: annotations) to configure all of the tiny parameters that nobody really cares about - a class hierarchy in which you have to jump to 20 levels of inheritance to get to where you want to go - that a lot…

Java is so popular, easy to learn and use that there are tons of terrible frameworks and bad programmers in the community. Rebel against it all you want but in the hands of great developer you can get pretty amazing software written in Java like Hadoop, HBase, Lucene, Cassandra, etc. Java is the assembly language of the JVM and since most of the cooler new languages are on the JVM (and written in Java often) it will…

Bytecode is the assembly language of the JVM. Java is the Java of the JVM.
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