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Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

javacodegeeks.com

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Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#61

Post by bonch »

recoiledsnake wrote: post #17

> Java, with its faults, has completely conquered web application programming. On the sidelines, charging hard, new languages are being invented at a rate that is mind-blowing, to also conquer web application programming. The two are pitted together, and we’re left with what looks a bunch of preppy mall-kids battling for street territory by break dancing. And while everyone is bickering around whether PHP or Rails 3.…

The problem with C# is that it's tied to Microsoft, and we're already seeing what can come of that with developers wondering if .NET is a first-class Windows 8 development platform or has been relegated to legacy status and supplanted by HTML5. Microsoft is remaining silent.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#62

Post by bonch »

Corrado wrote: post #23
aerique wrote: post #11

I don't specifically hate Java the language, although I'm not enamoured with it either. I do hate the whole culture / attitude and baggage that comes with the language if you have to use it in an enterprise environment. That same culture that warped XML from something moderately useful into a horrible joke. Same goes for SOAP, UML and basically all things 'enterprise'. edit: I gave up on the whole thing when I had to…

Yes, we were talking about this specific thing at work the other day. How come all non-trivial Java programs end up a mass of Factory and Implementation classes?! Several of the systems I support even weave in Spring, which while helping in some ways, completely obliterates readability. :(

Enterprise often over-engineers things.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#63

Post by bonch »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #13

Java is the default language in the best selling phone platform, Android. For that reason alone it will remain relevant for a long time. I know Android can run other JVM languages, but until the platform becomes stabilized (meaning most big security holes are filled, new non-trivial features are rare) there won't be a push to make non-Java languages a first class citizen.

> Java is the default language in the best selling phone platform, Android.

When iPods and iPads are included, iOS greatly surpasses the Android install base. These aren't just phone operating systems; they're mobile device operating systems.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#64

Post by nerd_in_rage »

I don't hate the Java language or the JVM.

However, I hate many of the Java APIs, specifically most "JEE" crap, such as EJB, JMS, most third party ORMs (Hibernate), most Java "web frameworks" (too numerous to list).

Java IDEs are bloated, slow, and often unstable with extra plugins (Eclipse)

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#65

Post by regularfry »

spullara wrote: post #53
rb2k_ wrote: post #41

I always had the impression that people that say they 'hate Java', usually don't hate "Java: the language". Most people that dislike programming in Java have a negative sentiment because of: - the usage of XML (or now: annotations) to configure all of the tiny parameters that nobody really cares about - a class hierarchy in which you have to jump to 20 levels of inheritance to get to where you want to go - that a lot…

Java is so popular, easy to learn and use that there are tons of terrible frameworks and bad programmers in the community. Rebel against it all you want but in the hands of great developer you can get pretty amazing software written in Java like Hadoop, HBase, Lucene, Cassandra, etc. Java is the assembly language of the JVM and since most of the cooler new languages are on the JVM (and written in Java often) it will…

"Don't do that" is useless advice when whatever "that" is is being inflicted by a third party.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#66

Post by stcredzero »

Peaker wrote: post #31
BruceForth wrote: post #4

Blub programmer telling why you should program in Blub.

Almost everyone is a Blub programmer, including pg who coined the term: The interesting thing about Blub programmers is that they do not know they are Blub programmers.

The interesting thing about Blub programmers is that they do not know they are Blub programmers.

Even more interesting: Even those who know about the above phenomenon and make meta-comments on it are Blub programmers and do not know that they don't know this.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#67

Post by przemelek »

I don't get this whole "Java sucks movement". You don't like Java? Cool, use something else. Your boss not let you do it? Convince him or her. Create prototype of what they want from you using your language and use it as a proof that your language of choice is a proper tool. If you cannot, and your bosses decided to use Java it isn't problem with Java, but with you, or your company, so you need to work on you, or change a job.

I like Java and JavaScript, I don't like too much C# and Delphi (maybe because of this that I used those in my worst job ever? ;-)). But I don't think that C# and Delphi are bad programming languages used by idiots.... I don't think so, because I know some super programmers using those languages, and I know also some very bad programmers using for example Ruby. In short good programmer will use any language and will create cool software, bad programmer may use the best language ever and will create something what sucks ;-)

And this that companies decide to stay with Java or even COBOL have sense, to rewrite code from one language to other you need people who knows both languages, and are in those two languages really good.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#68

Post by stcredzero »

knowtheory wrote: post #35
rch wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I certainly identify with your point, but I actually had the opposite reaction to this article; particularly the second half. I started my career working on 'serious' software, then switched to web applications for a few years, and have recently settled into building multi-faceted, research-oriented systems -- and throughout the entire experience, I have consistently found myself having to apologize for the hype and…

Right but there's a difference between hype and experimentation with new tools and methodologies. Cargo-culting is never a good idea. But to say that new and better techniques have not come out of (or been popularized by) new movements in software and business is simply false. The stodginess and perhaps arrogance of academic and deeper research posts are just as obnoxious and hobbling as novelty-chasing unprincipled…

Cargo-culting is never a good idea.

If it leads you to discover the underlying principles, then it is. This happens often in music.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#69

Post by regularfry »

Jeema3000 wrote: post #39

I wonder... how many programmers have been exposed to enough different problem domains and languages to really make an accurate judgement on what is "the best programming language", if any such thing even exists (which I doubt). Maybe the reason you hate some feature of a language because you've never been exposed to a problem domain where that feature would be required. I mean how many of us can honestly say that we…

I'm 7/9 on your list ("versed" if not necessarily "expert"), and I can honestly say that there's only one sweet spot for Java that I've been able to identify: cross-platform GUI work. And that's entirely down to the tooling.

Re: Hate Java? You’re fighting the wrong battle.

#70

Post by regularfry »

Corrado wrote: post #23
aerique wrote: post #11

I don't specifically hate Java the language, although I'm not enamoured with it either. I do hate the whole culture / attitude and baggage that comes with the language if you have to use it in an enterprise environment. That same culture that warped XML from something moderately useful into a horrible joke. Same goes for SOAP, UML and basically all things 'enterprise'. edit: I gave up on the whole thing when I had to…

Yes, we were talking about this specific thing at work the other day. How come all non-trivial Java programs end up a mass of Factory and Implementation classes?! Several of the systems I support even weave in Spring, which while helping in some ways, completely obliterates readability. :(

It's a compensation for not having closures. Many Patterns are.
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