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A Week with Plan 9

thedorkweb.substack.com

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Re: A Week with Plan 9

#71

Post by khm »

_ofdw wrote: post #68
khm wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to just silently remove the image. I'm not in the habit of editing myself to suit the passersby. I do think the image should be provided with context. It is not the only thing associated with 9front that people have targeted for removal. I am not 'ignoring this.' I am addressing it right here, and on Mastodon. I enjoy it when Internet people make throwaway accounts to accuse me of cowardice, but I'm conf…

This is a weird flex, to choose to dig your heels in on this particular image/issue.

Given a choice between deleting things that might make me look bad and explaining the choices that I make, I will always choose the latter. It's the only surefire opportunity for me to learn.

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#72

Post by basscomm »

shakingmyhead wrote: post #70
_ofdw wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a weird flex, to choose to dig your heels in on this particular image/issue.

I suspect he doesn't want to face the fact that it was maybe a bad idea in the first place. It's hard to own up to mistakes. I've been there.

I suspect that the argument of "You should violate your personal principles because I want you to (just this once for me, and then you can go back to not violating them)" coming from an anonymous account on an internet message board is too flimsy to consider.

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#73

Post by shakingmyhead »

basscomm wrote: post #72
shakingmyhead wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect he doesn't want to face the fact that it was maybe a bad idea in the first place. It's hard to own up to mistakes. I've been there.

I suspect that the argument of "You should violate your personal principles because I want you to (just this once for me, and then you can go back to not violating them)" coming from an anonymous account on an internet message board is too flimsy to consider.

I think his principled stance that his contributions to an open source project have to include holocaust jokes is not very compelling or principled.

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#74

Post by chaganated »

khm wrote: post #41
michaelhoffman wrote: post #22

> 9Front And Surprise Auschwitz What the actual fuck. At first I thought this was some joke in poor taste by the blog post, but in fact he is referring to the use of Nazi death camp imagery in the documentation. That's not cool.

Hi. I made that image. I was searching for 'rails documentation' and accidentally hit the 'Images' link. That photo was in the first page of results. Its presence was so absurd and out of place that I felt like I had to do something with it. It was made in an era before actual Nazis had re-entered the public dialogue, so it felt like Google Image Search was denigrating Ruby on Rails by including this sort of imagery…

Some people watch too much History Channel. My first thought on that page was, "These people must hate rails as much as I do."

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#75

Post by [deleted] »

michaelhoffman wrote: post #22

> 9Front And Surprise Auschwitz What the actual fuck. At first I thought this was some joke in poor taste by the blog post, but in fact he is referring to the use of Nazi death camp imagery in the documentation. That's not cool.

[deleted]

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#76

Post by sleepydog »

floren wrote: post #12
jeromenerf wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people in the go team were indeed part of the plan9 team, Rob Pike and Russ Cox to mention a few. Iirc Russ Cox ported Plan9 userspace to Linux when he moved to google, somehow out of frustration. Thanks for that, using acme on Unix is like a hot summer late afternoon fresh beer. Or whatever fresh beverage of your fancy.

Acme on Unix is almost as good as Acme on Plan 9, but I can't stress enough how great it is on a real Plan 9 system inside rio. p9p acme does introduce multi-line tag displays, though, which is hugely convenient when I want to keep track of lots of line numbers or hold a bunch of Edit commands.

The multi-line tag also helps a lot outside of plan9 because the file paths on plan9 tend to be shorter thanks to the per-process namespaces. e.g. instead of /home/$user/projects/foo you can just bind that to /prj/foo or whatever you like.

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#77

Post by qwaladuk »

khm wrote: post #41
michaelhoffman wrote: post #22

> 9Front And Surprise Auschwitz What the actual fuck. At first I thought this was some joke in poor taste by the blog post, but in fact he is referring to the use of Nazi death camp imagery in the documentation. That's not cool.

Hi. I made that image. I was searching for 'rails documentation' and accidentally hit the 'Images' link. That photo was in the first page of results. Its presence was so absurd and out of place that I felt like I had to do something with it. It was made in an era before actual Nazis had re-entered the public dialogue, so it felt like Google Image Search was denigrating Ruby on Rails by including this sort of imagery…

[flagged]

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#78

Post by _b8r0 »

khm wrote: post #64
_b8r0 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's also this: https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510025405203167 which I interpreted as some kind of invitation to disavow the project and name 'the real villains' or something, which would of course be the same deal. Sure, I can see that and thanks for raising that. It wasn't intended that way but I can see how it came across. Some mediums are just poor for discussion and text is always poor for expressing…

This was the other post, which I had trouble finding quickly: https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510258237207655 I'm sure you can imagine how I received that: "we don't care what you actually believe, we only care about appendix L of the documentation." People have been calling us Nazis since day one -- we have several German developers so we make VW and BMW jokes about 'German engineering' and of course all the e…

> I'm sure you can imagine how I received that

Yeah I can see that now. Thanks. I guess once you process the first bit that way the rest drops off.

By the no nazis bit not meaning anything what I meant there was that with everything else it can be hard to tell what's intentional on the site and what isn't.

I honestly don't care who calls you guys nazis or not. Even if I wanted to (which I don't, I gain nothing by doing so) I wouldn't need to. There are plenty of people doing that already. The harder thing to do is to try to understand without pre-judging. Thanks for clearing a lot of this up.

EDIT: I noticed this in another subthread:

> I do think the image should be provided with context.

I'm editing here because I don't want to add to the pile-on in the other thread. You mentioned this above:

> Once the actual Nazis started showing up we had to get more explicit in our condemnation of their evil

If you want to keep the picture, what would your thoughts be on a log of that condemnation linked from somewhere in the FQA? Not necessarily Appendix L. No skin off my nose either way but I thought I'd mention it in case nobody had thought of it.

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#79

Post by simias »

jeromenerf wrote: post #10
jsolson wrote: post #2

It's not entirely abandoned. A few years ago Brad Fitzpatrick dropped by my desk because the latest Google Compute Engine virtualization stack rollout had broken Plan 9 on GCE. This was interfering with cutting a new Go release (the official releases ran on VMs running Plan 9). I don't remember the specific breakage, but that was the day we added Plan 9 to the stable of operating systems we run in our CI regression s…

Some people in the go team were indeed part of the plan9 team, Rob Pike and Russ Cox to mention a few. Iirc Russ Cox ported Plan9 userspace to Linux when he moved to google, somehow out of frustration. Thanks for that, using acme on Unix is like a hot summer late afternoon fresh beer. Or whatever fresh beverage of your fancy.

I like minimalist and sometimes esoteric dev environments but I must confess that I just don't get acme. I know that some people swear by it but it's hard for me not to think that it's the programming equivalent of listening to music on vinyls.

For one thing it's extremely mouse-driven, which is already disqualifying in my book but to each their own.

The whole "anything can be a tag and you can execute it by clicking the middle mouse button" can seem novel and exciting if you've never used Emacs, which did the whole "everything is configurable and scriptable" a long time ago and IMO better.

Then the lack of syntax highlighting is pure elitism in my book. I tried to give that a chance but when you listen to the arguments of its proponents it often boils down to "colors are childish" and "books are black on white and we read those just fine" which makes complete sense unless you think about it for two seconds.

I genuinely don't get it. When I first read a Vi(m) tutorial it seemed esoteric, complicated and weird, but I understood why some people found it more efficient that way. Watching somebody explain acme reminds me of TempleOS, filled with weird idiosyncrasies of dubious usefulness while lacking super basic features.

Re: A Week with Plan 9

#80

Post by khm »

_b8r0 wrote: post #78
khm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was the other post, which I had trouble finding quickly: https://mastodon.social/@stevelord/105510258237207655 I'm sure you can imagine how I received that: "we don't care what you actually believe, we only care about appendix L of the documentation." People have been calling us Nazis since day one -- we have several German developers so we make VW and BMW jokes about 'German engineering' and of course all the e…

> I'm sure you can imagine how I received that Yeah I can see that now. Thanks. I guess once you process the first bit that way the rest drops off. By the no nazis bit not meaning anything what I meant there was that with everything else it can be hard to tell what's intentional on the site and what isn't. I honestly don't care who calls you guys nazis or not. Even if I wanted to (which I don't, I gain nothing by doi…

We've been discussing it; we'll probably remove the image but add the context. Next time you find something that makes you like this, would you please send a patch (or at least report a bug)? It's sheer chance that I ran across your original Mastodon post at all.
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