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Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

write.privacytools.io

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Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#71

Post by vntok »

Tokelin wrote: post #59
raspyberr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach is one of my biggest annoyances because it's not the same. You're asking for them to give you something but they're not getting anything in return. When people use Facebook/Google etc. they get a service that they end up valuing very highly in return. That common argument of "Give me your phone and PIN" is so pointless because people wouldn't even give that stuff to Facebook if it didn't give them anyth…

Just change the hypothetical into: "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" Yes, it's a bit long, but it takes into account your concern of giving data and not receiving anything in return. And Facebook/Insta/Social media in general is very similar to having a newspaper available at your coffee table each day.

> "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?"

If we're entering a valid contract under the justice system of our country of residency, why not? Similar services already abound, in particular around people who contract to visit and attend to older citizens.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#72

Post by scatters »

Tokelin wrote: post #59
raspyberr wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This approach is one of my biggest annoyances because it's not the same. You're asking for them to give you something but they're not getting anything in return. When people use Facebook/Google etc. they get a service that they end up valuing very highly in return. That common argument of "Give me your phone and PIN" is so pointless because people wouldn't even give that stuff to Facebook if it didn't give them anyth…

Just change the hypothetical into: "Would you give me your home address and keys so I can drop off a newspaper on your coffee table each morning?" Yes, it's a bit long, but it takes into account your concern of giving data and not receiving anything in return. And Facebook/Insta/Social media in general is very similar to having a newspaper available at your coffee table each day.

Given that plenty of people give their home address and keys to a cleaner (domestic maid service), I really don't think that argument is going to get you anywhere.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#73

Post by meowster »

mmillin wrote: post #62

One of the most effective pieces of media I’ve seen in favor of privacy is Surveillance Camera Man [1]. While I don’t support what the guy behind the camera is doing, the videos he has evoke a stronger reaction than any logical argument I’ve heard against “having nothing to hide.” [1]: https://youtu.be/mP5ZVPwP7bg

Does he explain to his victims what he's doing? If not, isn't what he's doing to just for the benefit of the voyeurs(?) watching his videos?

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#74

Post by mtgx »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #70
cortic wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted this five months ago, but its still relevant: My nothing to hide argument; Nothing to hide is an incomplete sentence. Nothing to hide from who? Surly you want to hide your children from abusers and predators? Don't you want to hide your banking details from con artists and fraudsters? Your identity from identity thieves.. Your location from burglars, your car keys from car thieves or your blood type from some…

I tend to go into a different direction: "Sure, you don't have anything to hide today. But what about tomorrow? Or next year?" Did you know that law enforcement and justice can request and will try to gain access to data you share with any company? "Oh, but I have done nothing wrong." The definition of "nothing wrong" isn't set in stone. It's always up for interpretation. You might feel you're doing nothing wrong, bu…

That SHOULD be a powerful argument, too. Unfortunately, most people tend to roll their eyes when you start suggesting that the government might use such powers against them in the future.

They ultimately just "trust the government" to do the "right thing" no matter how flawed that thinking is. This is partially the fault of the education system and them not "knowing their history" that well.

It's only when such abuses of privacy happen to them personally that they become ultra-privacy activists. We've seen this even with politicians that fought to expand mass surveillance powers and then did an 180 when they saw those powers were used against them, too (who would've thought?!).

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#75

Post by raxxorrax »

tolbish wrote: post #15
inanutshellus wrote: post #9

I really like Social Cooling's take on privacy ( http://www.socialcooling.com/ ). SC's take (paraphrasingly, of course) is that without privacy, you're only rewarded for astroturfing your life & feigning a blandly successful life without pot holes. The Social Dilemma (Netflix docudrama)'s take on it -- that facebook-et-al don't sell "your data" they sell "a guaranteed change in your behavior" -- is also a pretty damn…

I do not think it is a given that the general public feels powerless about privacy. Why would someone take steps to empower themselves if they see no need for such power?

That is also socially induced behavior because we value understatement apart from few exceptions.

Tell them they should do it for their kids and they will comply. It is also the truth that when people give away control, that they also implicitly do it for their successors.

Windows or Apple ecosystems aren't good for building tech literacy, which will still be important in the foreseeable future.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#76

Post by Blikkentrekker »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #50
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #19

Many a man that says he cares about privacy also doesn't really care, to be honest. One thing that has always irked me is the carelessness by which a man may give out, and is expected to give out, his full name. Almost everyone has accepted that this is a bad idea on the internet, but in corporal social interaction full names are given out as if they be blowjobs, and so much information can be uncovered from a man's…

It's expected that not much embarrassing information would be out in the open under a person's full name. I have nothing against giving my name to in-person acquaintances, simply because they don't have access to the right resources to dig under the surface of my public image. If they do have access to such resources, I trust them anyway to not pry too hard.

Many companies publish various details about their empoyers under their name which an employer can't refuse; the same for a university.

My master's thesis and place of employ can freely be retrieved from my name and there is nothing I can do to hide this.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#77

Post by shard »

mmillin wrote: post #62

One of the most effective pieces of media I’ve seen in favor of privacy is Surveillance Camera Man [1]. While I don’t support what the guy behind the camera is doing, the videos he has evoke a stronger reaction than any logical argument I’ve heard against “having nothing to hide.” [1]: https://youtu.be/mP5ZVPwP7bg

I guess what sets people off was that he was being super in-your-face and creepy.

I did street photography for a while and a lot of it was about approaching people nicely and asking, or surreptitiously taking photos. I try to observe photography laws and made sure any photos of private buildings were taken from a public street, although I did get asked by the security guard at a mall to please move to the public sidewalk one time when I walked onto a parking lot to get the shot I wanted.

As I understand the laws in California at the time, photos taken from public property do not need releases from the property owners nor from people unless you intend to use the photos commercially, although I did not explicitly research the laws myself.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#78

Post by wegs »

pg_bot wrote: post #32

A better way to get the point across with people who claim "they have nothing to hide" is to ask them "do you want to give away your ability to hide something". Everyone's future is uncertain, and even the most transparent of people among us may come into circumstances where they would want some information to remain private. If you give away your privacy you don't just give it away today, it's gone forever.

My respect for privacy went up when I went through my first litigation. I then saw a few other people go through litigation, and learned more about the legal system.

It turned out that when people are trying to cast doubt on you, frame you, or otherwise are in a fight with you, knowledge IS power.

There's a misconception that you need to do something wrong to be punished:

* In a civil suit, a judge determines who is more likely to be right, and that can be based on gut feelings, circumstantial evidence, or fabricated stuff.

* Criminal law suits have a higher bar, but at the end of the day, the policeman and prosecutor get evaluated based on whether they threw someone in jail, not whether they threw the right person in jail. To do that, they need to convince a jury.

* Even if you're not throw in jail, a 2-year criminal investigation which costs you $200k in legal fees and eats up all of your mental cycles can leave you financially and emotionally debilitated. All that takes is some government employee having enough to be convinced there's something worth investigating.

* Al Capone went to prison for tax evasion. Our legal code is long enough we ALL break laws we don't know about. If a prosecutor or policeman believe you deserve to be in prison, they'll work really hard to do that.

An email where you misphrase yourself, a record of where you were on some date, or otherwise can all come back to haunt you, even when you've done nothing wrong. It's better to keep that stuff private.

Disclaimer: I've never personally been through a criminal investigation or prosecution. I've been through a couple civil cases. I was threatened with a criminal prosecution once unless I ceded ground in a business transaction. I didn't do what the other party threatened to accuse me of (and they knew it), but:

1. Evidence was enough messy evidence that I think they could have gotten a criminal investigation going.

2. Threatening criminal prosecution as leverage is extortion. I didn't know how far the other party would go. Would they fabricate evidence?

I spoke to a very good lawyer. Their opinion was that this would never make it to court -- even with if the other party faked evidence -- but that the time and cost of handling a criminal investigation would far outweigh any upsides. They advised me to fold. I folded. In retrospect, I'm glad I did.

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#79

Post by matz1 »

pc86 wrote: post #41
matz1 wrote: post #31

I would rather privacy to not matters, why? Because hiding information incur cost and inconveniences. The only reason i may care about privacy is because the information can be used to hurt me. What need to be solved is the issue of "information used to harm" instead of hiding the information(privacy) What is the real issue of want to lock my bathroom door? Because someone could hurt me while I take a shit, but if th…

This is just absolutely wrong. I don't close the door when I use the restroom because I fear physical harm. I just don't want someone walking in while I'm using the commode.

>I just don't want someone walking in while I'm using the commode

Door is not the only way to solve this issue.

The question can be asked, why would someone walk in if they can see you using the commode ?

Re: Privacy matters even if “you have nothing to hide”

#80

Post by Razengan »

"What do you have to hide" is such a bullshit form of victim blaming, thrown around by entities who don't understand or value the concept of consent.

No I don't fucking like you looking up shit about me that I didn't explicitly mean to share, and I don't owe you an explanation.

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