Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises • Hacker News Board

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#71

Post by ntsplnkv2 » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

dx87 wrote: post #8

nightski wrote: post #2

What is even more baffling to me is the sheer rage and lack of humanity of fans towards the developers when they delayed it several times. There was a lot of hate including death threats to the developers. I understand the internet brings out the worst in people but I can't imagine anyone desiring to be a game developer at this point.

It's not like every fan was acting like that. "We've received death threats" has become a tool to try and change the topic from whatever made people upset.

Death threats happen so much to everyone now online it's hard to take them seriously. Which is really rather sad, isn't it?

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#72

Post by fatbird » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

temp20160423 wrote: post #45

denkmoon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us software developers are too smart for organised labour. And why would companies like Epic restrict their revenues like that? Epic too sees financial gain from their developers working excessive (potentially unpaid) overtime, no doubt. Unions are necessarily devised and lead by workers, not beneficent corps.

That's correct. If you're a software developer and interested in maximizing pay while minimizing stress, you obviously avoid the gaming industry. The only news here is that the company seems to have reneged on the promise it made, but it's not obvious how a union would have solved this problem. Would the union help get the game shipped on time?

The TV and film industries are heavily unionised across multiple sectors--tech, writers, actors, directors, etc.--and it's the norm to complete projects on time and on budget, or with immediate compensation for planning failures leading to overtime/crunch time. Think about the massive amount of content routinely produced for TV and film and tell me how unions make that impossible.

Somehow, the large investors still make lots of money. The primary effect of unions in this space seems to be that they put an actual dollar cost on poor management. When you hear about boondoggles like Heaven's Gate or Waterworld, what you hear isn't that unions screwed it up; you hear about the prima donna director who couldn't get it all "just so" with a couple hundred million to work with.

My employer, a digital services agency, pays hourly overtime of 1.5x. Then the professional PMs we have work very hard to accurately forecast and estimate. I've had crunch periods in which I've been paid overtime, but they're rare because the business has incentived itself to execute on-time and on-budget, mostly by not promising what we can't deliver and expecting the workers to pick up the slack.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#73

Post by fatbird » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:33 AM UTC

aaron-santos wrote: post #21

sim_card_map wrote: post #11

And billions of profits go to owners and shareholders, while developers crunch 80 hours/week for $2000-3000/month.

If they don't want to have their labor power exploited, why don't they work somewhere else?

Volunteering to be exploited doesn't absolve the exploiter of their wrongdoing.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#74

Post by 4cao » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:33 AM UTC

nonbirithm wrote: post #55

Aeolun wrote: post #3

That’s dissapointing. Especially after they ‘promised’ they wouldn’t do it. I wonder what the solution is here. Boycotting the game is hardly going to help the employees there. I guess this is just one of those things that the law should mandate, but does not for some reason.

The people complaining about it being delayed are probably the people least likely to change their minds because of the delays and not buy the game when it comes out. Empty promises about crunch and lost trust won't matter as much to those people when the game comes out. Also, does the general gaming subculture still care about Red Dead Redemption 2's development and the livelihood and mental health costs it caused t…

> For GTA VI, Rockstar will only release a smaller sized game and instead add sizeable updates spread out over time

Sounds like Windows 10, only with microtransactions.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#75

Post by dathinab » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:33 AM UTC

pie_flavor wrote: post #60

memonkey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're getting a lot of hate for this comment but I think it's an important discussion. It isn't easy to "just go somewhere else" or "start your own thing" for a variety of reasons. The reality is that the majority of these game developers aren't getting job offers every day and don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a company. It's flippant to suggest that these developers can just find another…

You perhaps miss the point of 'then start your own thing'. It is not meant as a realistic suggestion of where to take your career. It is meant to point out that the employer/employee relationship is one-directional for relative profit because it's the other direction in relative stability and investment. You are correct in your analysis that developers don't have access to the kind of capital necessary to start a com…

But so do you miss the point as providing a working place which an employee can get by "start your own thing" does in no way imply that it's acceptable to abuse your employee just because they depend on you.

In the end they get a reasonable wage for the normal work they do, but not if crunch is involved. Which, do to the large amount of stress and in turn health (physical+mental) and social risk it can involve doesn't seem reasonable for "any" amount of money (or at least any amount any person would be willing to pay ;=) ).

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#76

Post by mlyle » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #67

mlyle wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A) death threats aren't acceptable. They're not really fun to receive. I remember a span when I received several and while I was fairly sure they weren't serious, it's still not too fun to think about. B) whinging about inevitable death threats to deflect attention from your gaffes isn't really great, either. The public complaint, if anything, further normalizes the death threats with people inclined to make them. Se…

"If one wants to object to death threats in a way that improves our culture and makes them less likely, it's probably best done out of band from the actual coverage of one's failing. Do it retrospectively, and in contemplative channels, not ones that are already polemic and filled with attention to the failing that caused the original outrage." Violent extremists are often operate under the mistaken belief that they…

Sure. I think it's only useful out of band, though, in these cases.

Because if you're pissed off about Cyberpunk 2077, and think death threats are OK... seeing an article with more news about '2077 being late, and an aside of them saying "these death threats are upsetting us" A) reinforces your belief death threats for situations like this are normal, and B) provides you with some validation/happies.

I'd wager that the kind of people who issue death threats over video game delays has a pretty big overlap with 4chan. 4chan peeps know their behavior is not normative, and having a bunch of outcry has never stopped their pursuit of the luls... and the kind of article mentioning the threats you're talking about is pretty much winning from their standpoint.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#77

Post by denkmoon » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:46 AM UTC

temp20160423 wrote: post #45

denkmoon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us software developers are too smart for organised labour. And why would companies like Epic restrict their revenues like that? Epic too sees financial gain from their developers working excessive (potentially unpaid) overtime, no doubt. Unions are necessarily devised and lead by workers, not beneficent corps.

That's correct. If you're a software developer and interested in maximizing pay while minimizing stress, you obviously avoid the gaming industry. The only news here is that the company seems to have reneged on the promise it made, but it's not obvious how a union would have solved this problem. Would the union help get the game shipped on time?

When I worked in public sector with a strong union, we didn't do crunch, we accepted that deadlines are malleable and my project managers always anticipated and resolved deadline problems before they became a problem.

Now I work for IBM, and I am expected to work late as much as it takes to ship on time. "On time" is of course completely arbitrary and determined by people who have no understanding of the technical tasks required to ship the project (and most pertinent, don't listen to me when I provide my expert opinion that the timeline is not viable). And they expect to not have to pay me for that overtime.

Not being able to exploit your workers encourages realistic deadlines.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#78

Post by buzzerbetrayed » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 1:51 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #19

0xy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The delays were sheer incompetence and are far from normal in the gaming industry. You don't guarantee to fans personally that the game will definitely come out at a date (which is less than a month away) then delay it the next day. This indicates that nobody even knew how bad it was. There's also rumors developers found out about the delays from social media. CDPR execs are just incompetent and unable to set realist…

Who cares? It’s a game . Incompetence or not, harassing and threatening devs is not okay.

Stop implying that anyone is suggesting threatening devs is ok. GP in no way implied this at all.

You can point out the delays are do to incompetence without agreeing that death threats are ok.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#79

Post by nomdep » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 2:08 AM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #76

pmoriarty wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If one wants to object to death threats in a way that improves our culture and makes them less likely, it's probably best done out of band from the actual coverage of one's failing. Do it retrospectively, and in contemplative channels, not ones that are already polemic and filled with attention to the failing that caused the original outrage." Violent extremists are often operate under the mistaken belief that they…

Sure. I think it's only useful out of band, though, in these cases. Because if you're pissed off about Cyberpunk 2077, and think death threats are OK... seeing an article with more news about '2077 being late, and an aside of them saying "these death threats are upsetting us" A) reinforces your belief death threats for situations like this are normal, and B) provides you with some validation/happies. I'd wager that t…

NO ONE is saying death threats are ok. But receiving menacing tweets from a few random accounts, specially when you can fabricate them yourself, doesn't even qualify as death threath.

Re: Cyberpunk 2077 has involved months of crunch, despite past promises

#80

Post by blamestross » Mon, Dec 07, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

uberman wrote: post #70

dom96 wrote: post #17

> While long hours would be permitted for those interested in working them, crunch would not be made “mandatory.” Yeah, I'm sure that works well. How can you compete with those that do work long hours when it comes time for performance reviews? The fear of losing your job is very real and I'm sure that creates a culture where in effect everyone is working long hours, no matter what the CD Projekt co-founder says.

Those that work harder or longer than others get ahead. This is a universal truism and also very distinct from the mandated overtime dictated by many developers.

Yes, but an employer attempting to absolve themselves of responsibility for pressures to overwork by "it is not required" is basically the same thing as "unlimited time off".