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How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

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Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#71
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't replace one untrustworthy, poorly managed organization with another. It just means involving a second untrustworthy, poorly managed organization with its own goals in my contract negotiations. Some might say that unions are better, but that has not been true historically in the US - they have a long history of corruption, power-grabbing, leadership with incentives that aren't aligned with the best interest…

> Europe has a totally different union model that is interesting and seems to work better, but it isn't really an option in the US. Can you say more about what prevents a union in that model from being formed in the US?

There's a Freakonomics episode that talks about this -> https://freakonomics.com/podcast/secrets-german-economy-stea...

TL;DR, the prevailing theory is that it's cultural.

> SUEDEKUM: Culturally, there is a sense [that] you have to be flexible when circumstances change, when new challenges arise. This is deeply embedded in the German approach of doing things.

> MARIN: That is part of a cultural thing: people trust each other.

> This culture, Marin says, also manifests itself in management style. Her research has shown that German C.E.O.’s are more willing to grant decision-making power to lower management. And that, she argues, improves quality. Because those are the managers who have the best sense of what customers want. This requires C.E.O.’s to have quite a bit of faith in their managers.

> You may be surprised to learn that German workers willingly accept a wage lower than the one their union negotiated. But they’d learned from history. Specifically, from their own history at the end of the Cold War.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#72
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

If you think professional sports leagues and the movie business base opportunities and compensation on seniority I don't know what to tell you. Those fields are almost completely unionized. There's no obvious reason to think that the market for high skilled technical workers would be substantially different.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#73
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't replace one untrustworthy, poorly managed organization with another. It just means involving a second untrustworthy, poorly managed organization with its own goals in my contract negotiations. Some might say that unions are better, but that has not been true historically in the US - they have a long history of corruption, power-grabbing, leadership with incentives that aren't aligned with the best interest…

> Europe has a totally different union model that is interesting and seems to work better, but it isn't really an option in the US. Can you say more about what prevents a union in that model from being formed in the US?

I don't know that it couldn't happen - but when an individual tech worker is making a decision about unionizing (in the US), it is always around an individual workplace unionizing. Industry-wide unions aren't very standard in the US (outside of industries with extremely high barriers to entry) and it seems like it would be extremely expensive/time-consuming to make it happen (beyond what I as an individual considering unionizing can realistically do).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are unions in the US really like that, or is it a one-off being used to spread fud? Yes, they are. I've been working a booth at a convention showing off some tech and asked a passing worker for an extension cord. The response was that they asked on the radio, but the only person available to perform this role was on lunch so it'd be at least 45 minutes until I could get an extension cord. I have had this happen in…

> or is it a one-off being used to spread fud you replied to this with a one-off anecdote to spread fud

If it had happened only once or only a few times, I'd agree. This type of thing happens at every single convention.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#75
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seemed to help with severance when they got rid of 40% of their staff a few months after the union was formed [0]. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...

Indeed a very good example of what union can do for you.

[deleted]

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#76
post #4
post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Instead, we could have things like:

1. abolition of non-compete agreements

2. ownership of code we write when we're not at work

3. standards for privacy and security enforced by working engineers and not by management

Maybe your list is different than mine, but if you can think of anything we might want that goes against the profit motive of corporations, a union (or a guild, or whatever you want to call it) is a proven way to get these things. The Writer's Guild of America guarantees the screenwriters of a movie are credited, for example -- imagine all software had a list of the people who made it!

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#77
post #3

I find this interesting because I don't fully understand how tech became so opposed to unions. Many in our industry are quite jaded about the poor behavior of large corporations. Perhaps there are also reasons to be distrustful of unions. But mostly we accept working with or doing business with the former, and entirely eschewing the latter. Why have we decided that untrustworthy, sometimes poorly managed organization…

Personally, I don't want unions because my job is awesome as it is - absurd salary, great benefits, interesting problems, etc. I don't really see what a union could give me, I don't need more money and I work reasonable hours. Also I've seen how unions can completely paralyze the hiring and firing process (ex. Ontario teachers union and their horrible standardized job interviews).

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#78
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China. they've got the notorious "9-9-6" hours. "9 AM to 9PM, 6 days a week".

Are there a lot of labor unions in China?

Not really.[1]

[1] https://www.chinabusinessreview.com/trade-union-law-and-coll...

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#79
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it is that in-demand, well paid workers don't have patience for the BS work rules that unions are notorious for. It might be unfair characterization, but "you can't change/test that code, that's role X", and other such bureaucracy can be really draining.

Unions are the antithesis of a meritocracy. Try promoting based on seniority over merit in a tech. business, and I doubt you'll stay competitive for very long. I don't know if kickstarter counts as a pure "tech company". They use technology, but they don't create it. Their customers are activists, so it's not surprising that their employees are, too.

Some unions negotiate practices regarding seniority for good and bad reasons. Others don't. A software workers union wouldn't necessarily do that, unless its membership voted for it. Which might make sense, because of rampant age discrimination - but there's nothing inherently tying that to promotion.

Re: How tech workers at Kickstarter formed one of the only unions in the industry

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Easy. I'm not anti-immigrant and I know large groups of disgruntled software engineers (precisely the union-fans) are. So I need to reduce their power. So I'm anti-union.

I know your big fear is that SWE unions would push for anti-immigrant protectionism, but a cursory glance at HN reveals that the industry workers are disgruntled about everything from ageism to unpaid crunchtime to lack of compensation transparency to technical interviews to open offices (now a moot point) to HR inability to prevent sexism or racism. All issues that could potentially be more compelling to an actual S…

Admittedly, I did weaken a little when my friends told me about their experience at Caviar. It did feel like collective bargaining would have served them well. But yesterday I saw 1280 comments renewing my resolve¹. No, I will not build a big bomb and put it in the hands of a capricious mob.

It sort of reminds me of the Sierra Club in SF. I recall it being some sort of enviro org but now all they discuss is housing and all the outdoors guys are sad about it. I'm sure when your organization is parasitized and similarly subverted, you will feel sad too.

But not all the tears of your founding members will undo the harm done. No, better the bomb remain unbuilt².

¹ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24702393

² And I went to the Chase Bank near Avalon Street in San Francisco the other day. Avalon Street wasn't called Avalon, originally. The story of how it became Avalon, how another became Peru, and yet another became Excelsior provides a nice backstop to any weakening of my resolve. Unions are a Brazen Bull.

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