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My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

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Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> depending on the crime, obviously Well, this is the big part that's missing from the story. 13 years seems like it was a big deal. Is it even legal to ask someone who was in prison what their crime was during an interview?

Definitely in the UK. You can ask for full criminal records.

You can ask.

But UK convictions become 'spent' after a certain amount of time (Depending on the length of the prison sentence served, with 4+ year sentences never becoming spent) after which they leave the person's basic criminal record, and there's no obligation to tell a prospective employer about them.

Only a few jobs (such as teaching) are allowed info on spent convictions.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

> You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. If only that were accurate. Prison time in the US is not given out in proportion to the seriousness of the crime, and the amount of prison time is highly variable depending on locale, race of offender, race of…

The two are not mutually exclusive. You can have a majority of serious offenders in your prison population that also happen to be from certain locales/race/etc...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#74
The American cultural penchant for cruelty and predilection for fear is something I find really off-putting about living here (as an expat).

And make no mistake, the ubiquity of "are you a convicted felon?" on every application form is cruelty. Bear in mind that can (depending on the state) include, for example, possession of even small amounts of cannabis.

Mark Wahlberg is a convicted felon for what seems to be a pretty vicious race-based assault 30 years ago. Even as someone who is famous and extremely rich this actually causes him a lot of problems, so much so that for awhile he petitioned the Massachusetts governor for a pardon.

Personally I was (and am) against a pardon for him. There was enough of a backlash that the request was dropped. The problem with him getting a pardon is that's (yet another) exemption for the rich and famous. Kind of like how only people with 100K Twitter followers can be customer support on anything these days.

What about all those people who are convicted felons for minor drug offenses including drugs that can now be legal for recreational use? They don't have the wealth and fame to bypass this scarlet letter.

Even worse, this can be triggered by more cruel measures like three-strikes laws that disempower judges from making informed decisions.

The problem here is the permanent scarlet letter and there shouldn't be exemptions for wealth, fame or power.

The level of incarceration in the United States should be a huge source of shame. It's an institutional failure and yet more cruelty, especially given the prevalence of prison rape.

It's good this woman learned a new skill and (even better) is allowed to use it. It's just sad that this is such an exception it's newsworthy.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#75
post #11

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?

I don't think anyone expects them to be overlooked. You look at the person and you see if they've changed for the better.

I would much rather hire someone who grew up poor and fell in with gangs and felt pressured to join in an armed robbery 10 years ago and understands that it's wrong than someone who had a demonstrated bias against some minority 10 years ago and still does today. This isn't about whether they're a "good person" or anything, this is a mercenary calculation based on business value. I don't expect the former gang member is going to engage in similar violent crimes if I employ them. I do expect the biased person is going to have trouble working productively with people in my company who are part of that minority or is going to negatively impact those folks' productivity.

I'm not in the business of determining the magnitude of your moral transgressions. That stays in the confessional. I'm in the business of hiring folks who will deliver business value.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#76
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are losing their jobs because of offhand tweets completely unrelated to their occupation; how can we expect that a blemish as big as a criminal record will be overlooked?

I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.

So, Thought Crime weighs heavier than statutory crimes? Who decides the guilt or innocence of the thoughts?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#77

We need more of this. A criminal record in the US is a curse for life, leaving former criminals with little chance at success and little to live for. People without much to live for are dangerous. We should help our former criminals rather than condemn them for life--it benefits us all.

I wonder what kind of community reaction there will be if Hans Reiser submits kernel patches after getting released/paroled.

Who's going to dare rejecting his labor of love?

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#78

There are a lot of people saying they're in favor of this type of thing. And for non-violent offenses I'd probably also be on board. But this person committed a "serious, violent crime" that sent them to prison for 13 years. Are you comfortable sitting next to someone who is capable of a "serious, violent crime"? Are there certain crimes that cross the line for you? Would you expect your employer to inform you of the…

Are you comfortable being judged on the worst thing you've ever done in your life? Sure, a violent crime is worse than some bone-headed mistake made at a college party, or whatever your worst moment is. But how much have you grown up since then? Would you do it again? Or are you older and wiser? Well, they are probably older and wiser, too.

I'd be willing to be that the worst thing most people have done isn't murder or manslaughter. You don't have to be "older and wiser" to know that you aren't supposed to murder people.

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd rather hire a criminal (depending on the crime, obviously) than, say, a racist, especially given how many laws I disagree with.

You say this, but most prison time is done for extreme crime that everyone agrees with. In addition this, prison time is usually reserved for not just crimes we agree with but crimes we all agree are extreme. Case in point for this specific case it was violent crime, which I'm sure we can all agree is way worse than a racist tweet.

I'm having a hard time finding data for the state in question (California), but at a federal level this is very much not true. BOP stats show 46% of inmates are in for drug offenses, and 5% are in for property crime[1]

[1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...

Re: My friend starts her job today, after learning to program in prison

#80
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A criminal record in the US is a curse for life The US system probably is overly harsh -- in Ireland it's probaby overly lenient and the pendulum affect is that we've criminals being called in to court with literally hundreds of prior convictions and then they're let off with suspended sentences and then go straight back to what they were doing. Equally frustrating -- to see the guilty just walk off and laugh as it…

Out of interest what proportion of criminals let off with suspended sentences have hundreds of convictions?

I don't have statistics but there are incidents like these that are regularly reported in Irish and International Media:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/woman-most-c...

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