China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend • Hacker News Board

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#71

Post by inamberclad » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #16

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

At least on paper it's optimized for all good things. From the article above: Negative factors: dishonest and fraudulent financial behavior, playing loud music, violating traffic rules, making reservations at restaurants and not showing up, failing to correctly sort your waste, fraudulently using other people's public transportation ID cards Positive factors, on the other hand, include: donating blood, donating to ch…

It means nothing. These are all trivial charges that could be brought against you or your family without a second thought. Since the same people that bring the charges control the credit system, it's easy to create any story that's needed to destroy someone's life permanently.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#72

Post by yborg » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #15

What's about the scoring system which bans people from posting on forums?

If said forum was the only one available and posting on this forum was the only way to get a loan or a train ticket then maybe you'd have an analogy.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#73

Post by barnesto » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:09 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #60

np- wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If by common man you mean Han Chinese who live in major urban areas - then yes, your observation is mostly correct. But the expense seems to be the systematic oppression of rural populations and ethnic minorities (Uighurs, Tibetans, etc). The virtual (and physical) enslavement already exists [1], it's not really some hypothetical. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/24/china-has-buil...

> But the expense seems to be... There does indeed seem to be signs of oppression of ethnic minorities in China, but to me this is a relatively unrelated anomaly on a statistical basis compared to the general question of where do the fruits of labour in China go: to those doing the work, or to the ruling class. Most of what I have observed suggests that there is a "rising tide lifts all boats" phenomenon underway, al…

"As for the Uighur & Tibetan situation, this is starting to look like it's going to be just one of those very unfortunate facts of life...

Ethnic cleansing with helping of re-education camps and forced labor are just "unfortunate facts of life." Just give them 20-100 years and nobody will remember anyway...

Well, that's certainly a take on how things are going there.

Rising tides can't life boats filled with dead and forgotten people, but sure, citizens who follow the strict and draconian credit system are stacking bank, amirite?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#74

Post by willis936 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

Judging from tik toks and r/scriptedasiangifs: misogyny is one thing being optimized for.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#75

Post by lolbrels » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:13 PM UTC

free_rms wrote: post #51

reaperducer wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it If I do something bad, like file for bankruptcy, it is wiped off of the "private sector credit systems" after seven years. China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. Another important difference is that in the West, being…

> China's scorekeeping is perpetual. There is no forgiveness. No second chances. This is in a special category of "not even wrong". 1) There's no singular Social Credit System at the moment, there are a dozen trials of different systems in different cities and by different corporations. As such, there's no singular scorekeeping, perpetual or otherwise. 2) In most of the experiments, not only can people get out from u…

"Deemed socially positive"? Is that because they have no intrinsic understanding of right and wrong? I prefer free citizens that choose to do the right thing on their own, not because it gets them 5 slave points.

:) Are you the CPP rep on shift today?

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#76

Post by 2a0c40 » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

HashingtheCode wrote: post #25

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least on paper it's optimized for all good things. From the article above: Negative factors: dishonest and fraudulent financial behavior, playing loud music, violating traffic rules, making reservations at restaurants and not showing up, failing to correctly sort your waste, fraudulently using other people's public transportation ID cards Positive factors, on the other hand, include: donating blood, donating to ch…

> At least on paper it's optimized for all good things.... Tell that to Liu Hu. Liu Hu is a journalist in China, writing about censorship and government corruption. Because of his work, Liu has been arrested and fined — and blacklisted. Liu found he was named on a List of Dishonest Persons Subject to Enforcement by the Supreme People's Court as "not qualified" to buy a plane ticket, and banned from travelling some tr…

https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-...

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#77

Post by HashingtheCode » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

2a0c40 wrote: post #76

HashingtheCode wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least on paper it's optimized for all good things.... Tell that to Liu Hu. Liu Hu is a journalist in China, writing about censorship and government corruption. Because of his work, Liu has been arrested and fined — and blacklisted. Liu found he was named on a List of Dishonest Persons Subject to Enforcement by the Supreme People's Court as "not qualified" to buy a plane ticket, and banned from travelling some tr…

https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-security/grounded-life-...

Not the same thing as it applies to suspected terrorist only. In contrast anyone can be blacklisted by the SCS for numerous reasons unrelated to terrorism and banned from using ALL forms of public transport.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#78

Post by auggierose » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:21 PM UTC

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #16

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #10

Ultimately, what would such a system be optimized for? The goals will be modulated by the persons or groups in power. From what I've seen, the powerful in China seek a stable, well behaved, productive workforce such that the profit from their labor can accrue to the benefit of the ruling class. A data collection system as pervasive as the social credit system that feeds into a self-optimizing control center that can…

At least on paper it's optimized for all good things. From the article above: Negative factors: dishonest and fraudulent financial behavior, playing loud music, violating traffic rules, making reservations at restaurants and not showing up, failing to correctly sort your waste, fraudulently using other people's public transportation ID cards Positive factors, on the other hand, include: donating blood, donating to ch…

This is frightening stuff. It would be justified to kill in order to avoid such a system.

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#79

Post by cblconfederate » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:28 PM UTC

China seems to be structured well for the use of such a system. It doesnt have term limits, so its Elite can make a long term plan about what their society wants to be decades ahead. So it can treat its citizens like poultry until those levels are achieved. Most of the "free world" doesn't make such teleological plans, democracies are rather short-sighted , hence why something like this hasn't been needed and probably won't, aside from cooperation in crime or tax evasion (things in which all governments, future and past, north and south agree on). The need for such projects would arise if there was an imminent threat -- and there isn't one yet.

What will happen however if automation takes over most of production and we reach abundance societies? The need for such systems even in an autocracy like China will be diminished. But then i guess there will be other manufactured ideals

Re: China's social credit system is both unique and part of a global trend

#80

Post by wmeredith » Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #4

Like the article mentions, private sector credit systems have the same or similar result in dictating outcomes, but as long as its not from the state, nobody in the west will care about it. Which is very weird because it is exactly how people end up living in worse neighborhoods even if they have enough money to pay rent elsewhere, leading to worse and worse outcomes and no way to change that. A state sanctioned one…

I may not care for Experian et al., but I do like that they can't send me and my family to a concentration camp to be re-educated. The difference between the government and the private sector, is the government has a monopoly on violence.