Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers • Hacker News Board

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#71

Post by AstralStorm » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

bashallah wrote: post #70

AstralStorm wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny thing though, we use ergoloid derivatives in western medicine too. These are alpha-blockers for treating migraines or hypertension. There are psychotropic drugs based on these as well, and a bunch of discredited nootropics. Now, high BDNF on its own is not a good or bad thing. It is released both when injuries and when growth happens... I would be very careful recommending a shaman, unless you happen to have ev…

Shamans do not give you drugs and send you home. That’s a drug dealer. Shamans are more like tour guides. Walking you through your own experience.

This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. Whether it is better, we should learn properly and not assume. If it's not, we're wasting time. (Or perhaps it works better for true believers, that's an important thing to know as well.)

It is good to remember though that these approaches exist, and to let them be practiced safely and openly. As well as researched without interrupting it.

A tour guide does specific things. We could know what makes for a good or bad one.

Is a person who fakes the practice as good as a native life long taught shaman? Which kind of shaman is best? Is tailoring the experience needed and in what way? Etc.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#72

Post by bb88 » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:46 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #69

bb88 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also true that when we could have been exploring psychedelics back in the 60/70's, but they were made illegal mostly as a political backlash to the counterculture -- thus pretty much stifling the last 50 years of research on them. "Punching-the-hippy" politics aside, the political leaders told us there was nothing beneficial ever about those drugs, and we typically believed them, even lumping scientists who wan…

Honestly a fair number of studies have been done and the problem with all that stuff is there's always been a relatively high rate of complications and adverse outcomes. Responses/experiences are hard to predict. I get that in some people it can be a wonderful thing, nearly a miracle cure. I've done plenty of psychedelics myself, but I always find the insistence by proponents that any harm done is the fault of the us…

I do absolutely agree on that.

What would be nice is that you get the benefits of the drug without any of the "bad trip" experiences, in a controlled way.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#73

Post by AstralStorm » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:49 PM UTC

kaikai wrote: post #5

They don’t break it down in the abstract, but BDNF is brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which is associated with neuron growth and long term memory.

As well as certain cancers and many other things. Neuroscience is taking but baby steps, it's currently in the XVII century equivalent stage of development.

An interesting thing to know is how seizures and mental illnesses interact, for instance. Yes, we're talking ancient early XX century "connect a brain to electric current" kind of thing but at better precision. Electroshock therapy. We know so very little here.

It could well be that psychedelics and this share the mechanism of action. Or not.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#74

Post by bb88 » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #71

bashallah wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shamans do not give you drugs and send you home. That’s a drug dealer. Shamans are more like tour guides. Walking you through your own experience.

This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. Whether it is better, we should learn properly and not assume. If it's not, we're wasting time. (Or perhaps it works better for true believers, that's an important thing to know as well.) It is good to remember though that these approaches exist, and to let them be practiced…

> This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy.

While I don't doubt there is some human component to this, what I worry about are interactions with standard prescriptions and OTC medicines.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#75

Post by mcgt » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:52 PM UTC

AstralStorm wrote: post #71

bashallah wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shamans do not give you drugs and send you home. That’s a drug dealer. Shamans are more like tour guides. Walking you through your own experience.

This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. Whether it is better, we should learn properly and not assume. If it's not, we're wasting time. (Or perhaps it works better for true believers, that's an important thing to know as well.) It is good to remember though that these approaches exist, and to let them be practiced…

Wouldn't the data we have on mental health show that contemporary wisdom on its treatment is failing? Given spikes in rates of anxiety and depression over the past century, among other adverse effects, this isn't an unreasonable conclusion to make.

That said, maybe it's more important to look at how these have been dealt with in the past than the data we have in the present.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#76

Post by AstralStorm » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

bb88 wrote: post #74

AstralStorm wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. Whether it is better, we should learn properly and not assume. If it's not, we're wasting time. (Or perhaps it works better for true believers, that's an important thing to know as well.) It is good to remember though that these approaches exist, and to let them be practiced…

> This might be important, like a form of therapy based on counselling, thinking or talk seems beneficial for success of drug based psychotherapy. While I don't doubt there is some human component to this, what I worry about are interactions with standard prescriptions and OTC medicines.

Of course. Ergoloids have a long list of side effects, which is why they're considered outdated or third line treatments for many illnesses. But not others, say for severe migraines, they're still best or first line available agents.

Those risks are always weighted against benefits.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#77

Post by hombre_fatal » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #61

dvduval wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strongest effect I had was from a liquid dose, and for a minute or two I had what I would characterize as a white out. Everything in my field of vision turned white and I couldn't move very well. My friends were worried about me but it only lasted a short time. I guess it could be said that because I saw multiple balls in the racquetball court that I did see something that was different from reality. But unfortun…

I accidentally dosed myself in the middle of the night once after turning LSD crystal into ethanol:water:lsd solution and being careless at some point in the process. Those damn mucous membranes, they really get ya. Must have touched my lips absentmindedly. Before I realized, I was in bed trying to sleep. Restless, tossing and turning. Eventually started feeling that unmistakable body high around 1am. Anyone who’s do…

While waiting for the peak to pass on uncomfortably high doses, I sometimes entertain myself by closing my eyes and realizing I have no sense of how much time is passing until I open them. And if I hadn't the prior experience of closing my eyes while sober (and simply the ability to rationalize about how long things take), I wouldn't actually know if seconds or hours or eons were passing with the eyes shut.

One thing that makes me skeptical of most people talking about LSD on forums is that for you to really lose your shit on LSD (excusing mental illness), you have to take enough to lose your ability to do that sort of thinking and rationalizing. You aren't having a laugh with your friends on a monster dose while listening to Spiritualized. You're more like a newborn animal clutching on to a world you were just born into, the dose regressing you back into a sequence of instincts away from high level human thought.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#78

Post by gavinray » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 6:14 PM UTC

Enginerrrd wrote: post #69

bb88 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is also true that when we could have been exploring psychedelics back in the 60/70's, but they were made illegal mostly as a political backlash to the counterculture -- thus pretty much stifling the last 50 years of research on them. "Punching-the-hippy" politics aside, the political leaders told us there was nothing beneficial ever about those drugs, and we typically believed them, even lumping scientists who wan…

Honestly a fair number of studies have been done and the problem with all that stuff is there's always been a relatively high rate of complications and adverse outcomes. Responses/experiences are hard to predict. I get that in some people it can be a wonderful thing, nearly a miracle cure. I've done plenty of psychedelics myself, but I always find the insistence by proponents that any harm done is the fault of the us…

This is something that needs to be heard more.

I'd taken psychedelics perhaps 50-60 times before I had one out-of-nowhere bad experience that caused more harm than all the good I'd gotten out of them in my life.

I'm not against psychedelics after this either, huge supporter, but people like to pretend traumatic experiences don't have a chance of occuring.

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#79

Post by throw_this_one » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 6:15 PM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #61

dvduval wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strongest effect I had was from a liquid dose, and for a minute or two I had what I would characterize as a white out. Everything in my field of vision turned white and I couldn't move very well. My friends were worried about me but it only lasted a short time. I guess it could be said that because I saw multiple balls in the racquetball court that I did see something that was different from reality. But unfortun…

I accidentally dosed myself in the middle of the night once after turning LSD crystal into ethanol:water:lsd solution and being careless at some point in the process. Those damn mucous membranes, they really get ya. Must have touched my lips absentmindedly. Before I realized, I was in bed trying to sleep. Restless, tossing and turning. Eventually started feeling that unmistakable body high around 1am. Anyone who’s do…

Would you recommend a full dose 125-175ish by yourself for the first time?

Re: Low Doses of LSD Acutely Increase BDNF Blood Plasma Levels in Healthy Volunteers

#80

Post by nullc » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 6:17 PM UTC

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #43

nullc wrote: post #13

So does exercise.

I skimmed the literature a bit, and the results on this seem to be pretty mixed. Basically, exercise boosts serum BDNF, except when it doesn't. In particular, it doesn't seem to be clear what the necessary conditions are for a sustained effect on BDNF, as opposed to a previously sedentary/untrained person getting a transient boost from a single bout of exercise. One study's [1] introduction summarized it thus ( a lot…

So why assume that studies of drugs have better technique? It's a lot easier to study exercise.

I think a lot of X correlates with Y studies are just kinda crap for a number of reasons, including that we don't have extremely good baselines -- e.g. continuous 24 hour monitoring across a wide population in a multitude of circumstances.