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How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

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Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#71

Post by mtrovo »

subpixel wrote: post #13
xchip wrote: post #7

Please ignore all these experts, all they want is to make you feel special because you drink/eat their stuff. Above a certain threshold one cannot tell the difference between good and very good. Wine tasters know it and it has been very well documented. When it comes to flavours, as long as it doesn't harm you, your judgement is as good as anybody else.

Just as importantly, don’t fall for fetishism. Neapolitan pizza is a very specific style of pizza that, while “authentic” and photogenic, is by no means a superior style of pizza. Especially made poorly, at home, in an oven that is 200 degrees colder than necessary!

I feel that learning the classics on cooking is a good way to see how engineering mindset is close to cooking and food preparation mindset.

Talking about Italian food in specific, they're very opinionated about what's the best way to work each ingredient, how to work dough, how long to leave pasta resting, and what's the best blend of herbs and the best species for each recipe. On engineering we call it standardization not fetishism. That's what DOP, DOC and DOCG is about, and that's what the Neapolitan on Neapolitan pizza is about, you know that if you eat a Neapolitan pizza that follow the official process you will have a predicted flavor on your pizza, like it or not.

By reading the classics and asking yourself why they cook that way you will start to understand that you can use shortcuts where the output could be the same or close enough. For instance stone is a very bad heat conductor, that's why you need a very hot oven to deliver the right amount of heat to cook your pizza. But if you use a better conductor you could deliver the same amount of energy on a much lower temperature. On the "Modernist Cuisine at Home"[0] book they research this topic and arrive on the conclusion that a thick baking steel sheet arrives on much better results, they even sell their official baking steel [1].

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Modernist-Cuisine-Home-Nathan-Myhrvol... [1] https://modernistcuisine.com/shop/baking-steel/

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#72

Post by cmain »

albmoriconi wrote: post #52

I am from Naples and eat regularly at Gino Sorbillo's and Ciro Salvo's places. As it often happens here, everyone will swear by its pretty small and obscure "favorite place", but they are masters without doubt ;) The dough recipe from the article is pretty legit and exactly the way I do it at home; the main problem I see is that it would be pretty hard to find good Mozzarella or Fiordilatte cheese (Fiordilatte di Age…

Another thing to note is that since a lot of Neapolitan pizza makers conduct the entire fermentation at room temp, salt percentages are important and can change throughout the year with ambient temps.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#73

Post by gruez »

crispyambulance wrote: post #61
subpixel wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as importantly, don’t fall for fetishism. Neapolitan pizza is a very specific style of pizza that, while “authentic” and photogenic, is by no means a superior style of pizza. Especially made poorly, at home, in an oven that is 200 degrees colder than necessary!

You're right about oven temperature. Household ovens can barely hit 500F, that's not quite enough for proper pizza. There are some workarounds that will make very good pizza at home. My favorite is to use an outdoor grill instead of an oven. A hot grill with a pre-heated pizza stone is totally capable of reaching proper temperature. This can actually make neopolitan style pizza crust and works perfectly for other sty…

>Household ovens can barely hit 500F

There's a hack you can do where you use your oven's self clean function to reach high temperatures. Most ovens have a physical interlock preventing you from opening the door during a self clean cycle though, so to work around that you'll have to void your warranty and saw off the lock.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#75

Post by keiferski »

saiya-jin wrote: post #62
keiferski wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish this wine meme would die. Essentially every test done to ‘prove’ that there’s no difference between cheap and expensive wines has had two massive flaws: 1. The label of ‘wine expert’ is left undefined. True sommeliers have spent thousands of hours studying wine and are not the same thing as a guy that takes a weekend wine-tasting course and gets a certificate. Yet most ‘studies’ fail to mention this. Ju…

A simple flaw in your reasoning - none of the target audience of this comparison is actually a sommelier expert. The whole argument is about an average joe sampling say a wine costing say 15 euros in france and one costing 500. And the same average joe benefiting very little if at all from paying too much. Its like buying La Ferrari which all experts praise, when all you need is to drive 80kmh to next town. I persona…

> And the same average joe benefiting very little if at all from paying too much. Its like buying La Ferrari which all experts praise, when all you need is to drive 80kmh to next town.

But that isn't usually why these studies are often referenced, and certainly wasn't what the OP meant. The argument presented is often that there is no difference between high-end wines and low-end wines, which seems to be demonstrably false. That's not the same thing as unless you're an expert, you won't be able to tell the difference.

The reality is that wine appreciation, like any field, requires experience and knowledge to build "taste." This is pretty obvious when it comes to other things - no one would suggest that you could understand or appreciate the nuances of a WW2 film without knowing what WW2 was, but somehow when it comes to matters of taste in art, food, etc., the totally-ignorant person's opinion is equal to the expert's.

I'd say it's far more likely that contemporary culture is aesthetically/phenomenologically illiterate.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#76

Post by chrisgarand »

albmoriconi wrote: post #64
slow_donkey wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would instant yeast have an effect on slow rising? You'd just use a smaller amount than AD or cake yeast? I can't think of any significant difference especially compared to AD.

It seems that I wrongly thought that "instant yeast" was what we call "lievito istantaneo", i.e. baking powder, that would give a a pretty different end-product. It looks like it can also refer to instant active yeast, i.e. dehydrated beer yeast, that should actually be fine as far as I can tell (I have no idea of exact proportions however).

Officially, I understood you couldn't use dry yeast, that has changed it seems: https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana

That being said, you can probably use a smaller amount of instant yeast, it definitely shouldn't be replaced as a 1:1 with regular yeast as the fermentation time is an integral part of the flavour profile.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#77

Post by toyg »

muxator wrote: post #37
C19is20 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

N.Italy: I'm quarantined [well, it's lockdown, really] with two Italians, one is my wife (other is son): I'm not allowed even remotely near the kitchen. Every mealtime has become a stereotypically-italian ultra-marathon. 2.4kg heavier since. Yes, i am trying to keep fit but going from 30-200km daily bicycle rides (eas 28km commute and back for work) to balconia+pasta+pasta sure takes it toll.

> I'm not allowed even remotely near the kitchen Ahha! I do not know why, but in every international couple I have met (including mine) the Italian part always ends up taking over the kitchen. My non-Italian wife says it is a matter of low adaptability to different cooking styles on our part. Maybe it's true. But she seems to be happy to accept it :-)

As an Italian, I agree with your wife: my countrymen can be downright racist when it comes to food. Often they struggle to accept even other Italian food that is not from their own city. Then again, that's how Italian cuisine managed to survive the industrial revolution whereas others didn't make it.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#78

Post by progre »

C19is20 wrote: post #31
cosmodisk wrote: post #21

Pizza is a dough base with some veg and cheese sprinkled on top of it. Lets not make it more special than it needs to be. It's not very hard to make it and even first time it will taste good enough.Maybe not as good as if some Italian would do it but definitely not bad either.

Your beer thoughts?

Using this exact reasoning I have gone from microbrew IPA:s to cheap straight vodka.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#79

Post by keiferski »

oldandboring wrote: post #65
keiferski wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish this wine meme would die. Essentially every test done to ‘prove’ that there’s no difference between cheap and expensive wines has had two massive flaws: 1. The label of ‘wine expert’ is left undefined. True sommeliers have spent thousands of hours studying wine and are not the same thing as a guy that takes a weekend wine-tasting course and gets a certificate. Yet most ‘studies’ fail to mention this. Ju…

I've thought about what must happen to a master sommelier's "blind taste" skills once they've passed the exam and no longer need to practice that skill on a regular basis. My assumption is that, like with any specialist, that skill gets rusty if not used, and that the more important everyday skills in that job revolve around their knowledge of wine, ability to suggest good pairings, and customer service.

That's a good point. It's sort of a "problem of the expert" - as you become better at something, the number of people with your level of knowledge becomes smaller and smaller. Since you have less experts or challenges to go up against (or indirectly, exams), your skill level drops.

Re: How to make pizza like a Neapolitan master

#80

Post by cyphar »

tomcooks wrote: post #48
gnrlst wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes but you don't mix the dough with the tomatoes until the very end so it wouldn't impact the yeast. With proper flour sugar is not necessary, as the flour itself will be broken down by the yeast (hence the maturing/proofing stage). If you "exhaust" the flour, then you'll need sugar to get an "artificial" Maillard reaction and a nice browning of the crust.

Yes obviously you don't add tomatoes and sugar to the dough, you prepare a sauce on the side and add a bit of sugar to that. Yeast needing no sugar to work is something I've never heard of, could you please forward more information about this? Thank you.

Dough will rise just as well without any added sugar -- the starches in the flour are the primary food source for the yeast. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. The purpose of sugar in doughs is to assist browning -- especially at home-oven temperatures -- and "improve" the flavour. I personally prefer baking dough without sugar, but you do whatever you prefer.
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