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Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

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Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#71

Post by bluGill »

kareemm wrote: post #62
cperciva wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not convinced that it's bad for the government to deliberately overpay for projects in order to funnel money into the pockets of its political donors?

I’m not sure that’s a fair characterization. Is it clear they’re overpaying? I’m not pro-union but unions aren’t the devil.

A union that is getting contracts because they contribute to the right people is the corrupt devil. A union that provides for their workers salary, safety, retirement, or whatever other good is fine, but many unions cross the line to not allowing non-union workers fair ground to compete with them and that is evil.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#72

Post by rbavocadotree »

gerbilly wrote: post #67
moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

> lack of experience and expertise. Canada is a relatively young country with very few major infra projects under its belt. Gawd. As if Canadians are too dumb to go to international conferences like everybody else. Maybe they wouldn't let us in because we are wearing toques and speak in funny accents.

Toronto is a larger city than Chicago, and has more construction. We hold international conferences.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#73

Post by Nasrudith »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #66
moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

>>over-the-top safety requirements This is due to the safety at all costs fallacy that dominates popular politics. -- One other factor is capture by unions, although that could fall under corruption. It's a high level form of corruption involving swaying public opinion to accept union narratives about the good done by their control of labor forces.

I would call that broad special interests as opposed to corruption per se - corruption implies that they are abusing or perverting something for personal gain when it shouldn't be.

Taking your own salary obviously isn't corruption nor even outright banditry - the intended function is personal enrichment. Nor is voting in your interest even if short sighted and likely to cause future problems.

Similarly demanding construction helmets diverts resources but keeping workers safe is a legitimate goal. Even if the demands were extreme and inefficient like demanding the development and manufacturing of power armor to paint a shed in case a piano falls on them or a moose attacks while irrational, terribly inefficient, and stupid wouldn't be corruption per se.

Now the armor demand because of kickbacks? Doing shoddy work for repeat customers or harming others directly for their own gain? Definite corruption.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#74

Post by OliverJones »

moltar wrote: post #17

As I can see from living in Canada and travelling the world there can be several reasons: - corruption, especially in QC - over-the-top safety requirements, regardless of project size. E.g. in Toronto every road work sight has a police officer present who’s just standing there bored out of their mind. In Montreal it’d be two persons on each side holding a flag - a job in Europe replaced by a temporary semaphore. - la…

The US State of Massachusetts, for what it's worth, also uses police officers to control and supervise traffic around all worksites involving streets or roads.

These police details are paid by the organization doing the work. Condo developers, public utilities, and municipal public works departments all pay the same rates.

This stuff is expensive. It cost hundreds of millions of dollars US during the Big Dig. Our local radio humorists Tom and Ray Maggliozi might have said, lots of police "put their boats through college" in those days.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#75

Post by rb808 »

I think the main issue is why American costs are so low. It still amazes me how you can buy a big beautiful house in the sun belt for a few hundred thousand. If Canada is more expensive its probably sensible.

I realize I'm being downvoted but you have to realize that most of the developed world has a great standard of living but a new build 4 bedroom house on a 1/4 acre of land is completely unaffordable for most people.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#76

Post by Nasrudith »

kps wrote: post #30
charrondev wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Montrealer here. Constant construction of everything is the norm. The roadways are a nightmare of poor construction and tons of detours. The thing that bugs me the most is that they can’t seem to get the hang of painting lines properly on the roads. Lines painted last 2 months at most, then are gone. I was driving this weekend on 3-4 land highways, that curve around corners and have no lines painted. Luckily our publ…

> Lines painted last 2 months at most, then are gone. This is due to federal environmental standards; the old oil paints that actually worked are banned.

I wonder why they don't shift to using non-paint markers like a plaster or something at that point. The advantage of paint seems throughly lost overall.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#77

Post by chopin »

KptMarchewa wrote: post #69
chopin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking lowest cost bid isn't always optimal. In Germany it is required to take the lowest cost bid which leads to all kinds of failed projects as the winning bid can't hold its bid. As well, life-time of things built this way have become awfully short.

It's not "lowest cost bid" but "lowest cost bid that meets all the requirements". The point is that requirements have to be well specified.

The problem is that Germany lacks knowledgeable people in public service.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#78

Post by strig »

georgeburdell wrote: post #18

Still lower than the U.S. I went to a couple of cities in Canada in the past year and there's construction everywhere, from skyscrapers to roads. My corner of the Bay Area has a couple of 5-story apartment complexes going up.

That's probably more due to zoning regulations that construction costs, no? I was under the impression that zoning in the Bay Area makes new construction very difficult.

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#79

Post by bluGill »

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #48
cylinder wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Builders are actually in an extremely competitive marketplace, with a race to the bottom culture on costs. They also bear a huge amount of risk, usually committing to fixed fee contracts. The profits go to those who hold the money / land - the developer.

Except when the developer is also the builder, which is becoming more and more commonplace. And fixed fee contracts? What planet? I don't know of anyone who has built anything in the last decade or two that hasn't gone over budget. If you're buying materials through the developer they're taking a margin.

Developers are taking their margin on materials, but houses are easy to bid to an exact price. Many developers are building houses before there is a buyer. As soon as the hole is in the ground it goes to the real estate market, at any time you can buy it, and they will make changes per request - they assume you will choose paint color (any color is the same price), if you want to add a fireplace that will cost you. Often these houses are finished without before they are bought and go on the market at market price.

Of course the point is no builder would take the above risk unless he could estimate his costs with enough accuracy to ensure that he makes a profit on the deal.

Edit: Note that builders build enough houses to have processes and procedures to estimate them. If you build anything to a standard such that it is like everything else that is vastly cheaper than if you build something unique. There is a lot of ways to make a house custom within the standard, but if you want a round tower that will cost because builders don't know how to make round (but settle for octagon and suddenly you are back to standard)

Re: Why Are Canadian Construction Costs So High? (2018)

#80

Post by CryptoPunk »

Nasrudith wrote: post #73
CryptoPunk wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>over-the-top safety requirements This is due to the safety at all costs fallacy that dominates popular politics. -- One other factor is capture by unions, although that could fall under corruption. It's a high level form of corruption involving swaying public opinion to accept union narratives about the good done by their control of labor forces.

I would call that broad special interests as opposed to corruption per se - corruption implies that they are abusing or perverting something for personal gain when it shouldn't be. Taking your own salary obviously isn't corruption nor even outright banditry - the intended function is personal enrichment. Nor is voting in your interest even if short sighted and likely to cause future problems. Similarly demanding cons…

>>Similarly demanding construction helmets ... wouldn't be corruption per se.

No I wasn't categorizing demands for safety standards as corruption. The safety point was separate from my point about unions.

I was categorizing the misleading of the public to get a political party elected that enables one's own union to fetch above-market wages for oneself as something like high-level corruption, though maybe 'corruption' in the public policy context has a more specific definition that doesn't include this.

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