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A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

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Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#71
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's useful to distinguish between deaths due to malevolence, neglect, and other factors. Capitalist countries have killed plenty of people through malevolence or neglect. The Bengal Famine if 1943, for example, was caused by a combination of overpopulation, British imposed inter-province trade restrictions, Japanese occupation of Burma, and diversion of shipping capacity by the British for WWII. It was not, however,…

Agricultural output recovered in both Russia and China after massive famine. In fact, there has not since been a famine in China since the last whereas in the century previous famine was commonplace. Is this the part where you say that those countries stopped organizing their agricultural activity in a "socialist" way and that's why they no longer had famines?

Is this the part where you say that those countries stopped organizing their agricultural activity in a "socialist" way and that's why they no longer had famines?

Yes, this is the part[0] and it's worth reading about it at length (I've added paragraph breaks).

The TL;DR, with a Hacker News spin: a small startup of entrepreneurial Chinese hackers working in stealth mode disrupted the existing socialist system of agriculture and changed everything :-)

In more detail:

In December 1978, eighteen of the local farmers, led by Yen Jingchang, met in the largest house in the village. They agreed to break the law at the time by signing a secret agreement to divide the land, a local People's Commune, into family plots. Each plot was to be worked by an individual family who would turn over some of what they grew to the government and the collective whilst at the same time agreeing that they could keep the surplus for themselves.

The villagers also agreed that should one of them be caught and sentenced to death that the other villagers would raise their children until they were eighteen years old. At the time, the villagers were worried that another famine might strike the village after a particularly bad harvest and more people might die of hunger.

After this secret capitalist reform, Xiaogang village produced a harvest that was larger than the previous five years combined. Per capita income in the village increase from 22 yuan to 400 yuan with grain output increasing to 90,000 kg in 1979.

This attracted significant attention from surrounding villages and before long the government in Beijing had found out. The villagers were fortunate in that at the time China had just changed leadership after Mao Zedong had died. The new leadership under Deng Xiaoping was looking for ways to reform China's economy and the discovery of Xiaogang's innovation was held up as a model to other villages across the country.

This led to the abandonment of collectivised farming across China and a large increase in agricultural production. The secret signing of the contract in Xiaogang is widely regarded as the beginning of the period of rapid economic growth and industrialisation that mainland China has experienced in the thirty years since.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiaogang,_Anhui

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#72
post #52
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's useful to distinguish between deaths due to malevolence, neglect, and other factors. Capitalist countries have killed plenty of people through malevolence or neglect. The Bengal Famine if 1943, for example, was caused by a combination of overpopulation, British imposed inter-province trade restrictions, Japanese occupation of Burma, and diversion of shipping capacity by the British for WWII. It was not, however,…

The Irish potato famine, or the famines in India were absolutely caused by malevolence. You don't 'accidentally' have a famine in a country that is, in the middle of the famine, is a net exporter of food.

I didn't say it wasn't caused by malevolence. But it wasn't caused by "capitalism" as an organizational structure for the economy. My point is simply that while capitalist countries often kill people through malevolence or negligence, socialist countries do both of those things, and are also uniquely adept at killing their own people by destroying previously functional production systems.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#73
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soviet state was established in Russia 1917. In 1922 USSR was formed from several soviet states, including Russian Soviet Republic.

The article's abstract mentions the Soviet Union explicitly: > In 1921, the Lenin-led Soviet Union faced one of the worst famines in history. A new book details its horrors and the American effort to combat cannibalism

Come on, the difference is less important than when one confuses Frankenstein for his monster, especially in this context.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agricultural output recovered in both Russia and China after massive famine. In fact, there has not since been a famine in China since the last whereas in the century previous famine was commonplace. Is this the part where you say that those countries stopped organizing their agricultural activity in a "socialist" way and that's why they no longer had famines?

Is this the part where you say that those countries stopped organizing their agricultural activity in a "socialist" way and that's why they no longer had famines? Yes, this is the part[0] and it's worth reading about it at length (I've added paragraph breaks). The TL;DR, with a Hacker News spin: a small startup of entrepreneurial Chinese hackers working in stealth mode disrupted the existing socialist system of agric…

Thank you for providing a citation.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pol Pot and his regime were brutal. To minimize the possibility of dissent, they went after the educated class. Sometimes, simply wearing glasses would be enough to get you killed.

The Khmer Rouge happened as a direct result of US foreign policy.

This is not uncommon. Lenin arrived in Russia in a railcar stuffed with German cash.

https://www.dw.com/en/how-germany-got-the-russian-revolution...

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some would argue that a Socialist state cannot be realized through the currently established democratic processes, even with majority popular support. Wealth has simply far too much influence. However there is still the good old general strike.

Socialist states can't be realized through democracy because it's almost impossible to get the majority of people to vote away their agency and embrace suicide.

The onus is therefore on us to convince them that "voting away their agency and embracing suicide" is red scare nonsense, and to show them who perpetuates those myths and why.

American socialists have been making amazing progress in that regard, as of late.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#77
It always amazes me when cannibals describe human flesh as tasting like pork or chicken, yet most people read that and still don't question why it's OK to eat animals. These poor people needed to eat human flesh to survive. We don't need animal flesh to survive.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people still think these policies and these people were 'well-meaning' or 'it just went a bit wrong' They are taught to think that by people who want to have another go. Of course those people won’t be joining you in the fields, they see themselves as card-carrying Party members. Think I’m kidding? https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/67003748693718... We have a General Election coming up in the UK and milli…

It doesn't make any sense to me why some people try to rehabilitate Stalin, Mao and company. There is absolutely nothing to be gained in doing so. In truth, modern Socialism is far removed from Soviet Communism and modern Socialists need to recognize that "but Stalin" is a trite bad-faith argument and the people who employ it should be ridiculed.

Stalinism killed many people for several reasons that probably aren't relevant to "modern socialists." But some of the main reasons are still relevant. "Modern socialists" are still advocating the nationalization of industries, having vast amounts of economic activity being directed by the government, etc. (Ironically for Corbyn, some of his ideas will only be possible if the U.K. brexits, because of the E.U.'s deregulatory posture.) Those ideas are bad for the same reason Mao's collectivized farms killed tens of millions of people. Central planning is a bad way of running the economy. Businesspeople are better at running industries than government bureaucrats or political scientists.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#79
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't make any sense to me why some people try to rehabilitate Stalin, Mao and company. There is absolutely nothing to be gained in doing so. In truth, modern Socialism is far removed from Soviet Communism and modern Socialists need to recognize that "but Stalin" is a trite bad-faith argument and the people who employ it should be ridiculed.

Stalinism killed many people for several reasons that probably aren't relevant to "modern socialists." But some of the main reasons are still relevant. "Modern socialists" are still advocating the nationalization of industries, having vast amounts of economic activity being directed by the government, etc. (Ironically for Corbyn, some of his ideas will only be possible if the U.K. brexits, because of the E.U.'s dereg…

2019 manifestos are not yet available. So I guess you are thinking of the Labour policies in the 2017 election. Which policy was only possible after Brexit? The IFS (Institute for Fiscal Studies who fact check all public finance here) were critical of both 2017 manifestos, but were far more directly critical of the Tory one as being damaging to the UK economy.

It is a very long time since the Tory party could be considered a safe pair of hands economically.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to get an emotional reaction out of bare numbers and facts. If you tell people "x million people starved to death in a famine", we all intellectually agree that it's horrible, but it doesn't seem shocking. If you tell people, "no seriously, here are some stories about people cannibalizing each other because they were starving from a famine", it gives you an emotional gut punch because you get a stronger gra…

Also sickening is the understanding that the massive horror of the famine (in large part a result of the policies of confiscation of goods) was seized upon as an opportunity to punish the suffering peasants and diminish the authority of the Orthodox Church. I'm troubled there wasn't there an ounce of humanity among leaders, those who would rather grab power than alleviate the suffering. But then, to admit the scale o…

It's not just a question of ego and power. It's fundamentally based in the ideological belief that the ends justify the means--though that belief is very useful for laundering motivations of ego and power into self-perceived righteousness.

These people didn't necessarily want to alleviate immediate material suffering in the here and now. They wanted to Achieve Communism, which would supposedly alleviate material suffering forever. If that meant tens of millions had to be sacrificed on that altar, so be it.

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