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A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

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Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#21

Post by philwelch »

stanski wrote: post #17

I think the main point of the story should be the famine rather than the supposed cases of cannibalism. I don't think it's that unheard of for people to resort to eating human flesh (usually already dead) when starving. And we're talking about millions of people starving to death. I'd be shocked if there were no cases of cannibalism. Of course it does make for a pretty sensational title and probably better book sales…

It's hard to get an emotional reaction out of bare numbers and facts. If you tell people "x million people starved to death in a famine", we all intellectually agree that it's horrible, but it doesn't seem shocking. If you tell people, "no seriously, here are some stories about people cannibalizing each other because they were starving from a famine", it gives you an emotional gut punch because you get a stronger grasp of the utter despair and suffering involved.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#23

Post by lacampbell »

droithomme wrote: post #15

"Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine" is a related book, which covers this phenomenon in 1950s China. It's not a pleasant topic. Some people ate their children to survive. It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies can lead to this result. Planting the seed 5 ft beneath the ground will result in great crops because the seed will have to struggle and thus only the best seed will make it to harvest.…

It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies

The largest tragedy of the 21st century is that people still think these policies and these people were 'well-meaning' or 'it just went a bit wrong'. It seems that only when we defeat murderous totalitarians militarily that we understand them for what they are.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#25

Post by danharaj »

lacampbell wrote: post #23
droithomme wrote: post #15

"Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine" is a related book, which covers this phenomenon in 1950s China. It's not a pleasant topic. Some people ate their children to survive. It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies can lead to this result. Planting the seed 5 ft beneath the ground will result in great crops because the seed will have to struggle and thus only the best seed will make it to harvest.…

It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies The largest tragedy of the 21st century is that people still think these policies and these people were 'well-meaning' or 'it just went a bit wrong'. It seems that only when we defeat murderous totalitarians militarily that we understand them for what they are.

No famines were ever caused by western capitalist powers in any of their colonies or vassal states.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#26

Post by rayiner »

danharaj wrote: post #25
lacampbell wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies The largest tragedy of the 21st century is that people still think these policies and these people were 'well-meaning' or 'it just went a bit wrong'. It seems that only when we defeat murderous totalitarians militarily that we understand them for what they are.

No famines were ever caused by western capitalist powers in any of their colonies or vassal states.

It's useful to distinguish between deaths due to malevolence, neglect, and other factors. Capitalist countries have killed plenty of people through malevolence or neglect. The Bengal Famine if 1943, for example, was caused by a combination of overpopulation, British imposed inter-province trade restrictions, Japanese occupation of Burma, and diversion of shipping capacity by the British for WWII. It was not, however, caused by the means by which agricultural production was arranged in Bangladesh. (Which was more feudal than capitalist anyway.)

Socialist countries saw many deaths due to malevolence because it often took violent authoritarians to institute socialist governments in the first place. One can argue about whether those deaths should be held against "socialism" per se. But what's almost unique about socialism is how many deaths resulted even when the government was not acting malevolently or negligently. Tens of millions of people died in the Soviet Union and China not due to gulags and purges, but because socialism is a bad way to organize an economy. Socialist reforms of agricultural production, in particular, destroyed production.

Those deaths are squarely attributable to socialism per se. It's the result of removing market signals, distorting incentives, and replacing the capital-owning class who knows how to operate the economy, etc. What would happen to say Waymo if you replaced its investors and management with the folks who run the U.S. Digital Service along with "stakeholders" from among the employees and "local community?" You'd destroy it, because that's a terrible way to run a company. That's what socialist countries did with agriculture.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#27

Post by goatinaboat »

lacampbell wrote: post #23
droithomme wrote: post #15

"Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine" is a related book, which covers this phenomenon in 1950s China. It's not a pleasant topic. Some people ate their children to survive. It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies can lead to this result. Planting the seed 5 ft beneath the ground will result in great crops because the seed will have to struggle and thus only the best seed will make it to harvest.…

It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies The largest tragedy of the 21st century is that people still think these policies and these people were 'well-meaning' or 'it just went a bit wrong'. It seems that only when we defeat murderous totalitarians militarily that we understand them for what they are.

people still think these policies and these people were 'well-meaning' or 'it just went a bit wrong'

They are taught to think that by people who want to have another go. Of course those people won’t be joining you in the fields, they see themselves as card-carrying Party members.

Think I’m kidding? https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcthisweek/status/67003748693718...

We have a General Election coming up in the UK and millions of people are going to vote for the party that thinks Mao’s massacres are a hilarious joke.

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#29

Post by sampo »

m0zg wrote: post #22

[flagged]

> this was a mere 4 years after the socialist revolution

Also in 1970s in Kampuchea, the 4 years from 1975 to 1979 when the Communist Party of Kampuchea was in power, they managed to get 21% to 24% of the country's population killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Rouge_rule_of_Cambodia

Re: A new book on cannibalism in the 1921 Russian famine

#30

Post by AlanYx »

droithomme wrote: post #15

"Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine" is a related book, which covers this phenomenon in 1950s China. It's not a pleasant topic. Some people ate their children to survive. It's interesting though how very well meaning utopian policies can lead to this result. Planting the seed 5 ft beneath the ground will result in great crops because the seed will have to struggle and thus only the best seed will make it to harvest.…

In case people don't understand the reference you're making, Terentiy Maltsev (a colleague of Lysenko) convinced the Chinese leadership to mandate a theoretical planting technique called "deep plowing" -- sowing seeds 1 to 2 meters deep -- which was one of the multitude of causes of the Chinese famine.

The history of Lysenko and his circle's influence on Soviet and Chinese farming, and the triumph of political influence peddling and ideology over reality, seems almost unfathomable, but was very real.

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