How bullying may shape adolescent brains • Hacker News Board

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#71

Post by TrackerFF » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:19 PM UTC

HNLurker2 wrote: post #55

The only way to overcome your bully is to face him, leave him or cope (learned the hard way)

I was bullied back in middle school, by a bunch of different kids. It was mostly two different groups.

It was due to my funny accent, as we had moved abroad during my formative years, and I was speaking another language when we moved back a couple of years later.

It all ended when I beat the living crap out of one bully. He was a small guy, and I was already a head taller than most in my class. I just blacked out, and used him as a punching bag after one of his regular snide remarks.

He ended up in the hospital with both eyes glued shut, broken nose, and concussion. Teachers and parents were shocked.

But I was never bullied after that.

I don't advocate violence, but for me, that's unfortunately what worked.

(In a interesting twist of faith, years later I actually ended up becoming good friends with some of the bullies, because of shared hobbies, and them maturing)

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#72

Post by andrewjrhill » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #67

fortran77 wrote: post #53

I wonder if the people with these brain differences were more susceptible to bullying because of the social cues they express. So it's not bullying shaping brains, it's different types of brains get bullied more. Perhaps they should look at the brains of bullies, too.

Naah, I was bullied heavily in school and have keenly observed those who get bullied. It is the one form the 'out group'. I was bullied because I was the only kid in the group from a 'rival colony' and had 'helicopter-ish' parents. Every bullied kid since was either: fat, ugly, new kid in town, disabled or something like that.

Can confirm about it being the odd one out. As one of maybe 5 white kids in my very poor school, I was bullied relentlessly from 6 to 12 years old. I was quite an effeminate kid too with long blonde hair. Soft, quiet and not nearly as athletic as the other kids. They were ruthless both verbally and physically. I'm now 29 years old, 6'4", 90kg and I lift 4x a week and _still_ have gddmn self confidence issues.

I am considering taking up martial arts in an attempt to break this subconscious mindset which I am almost positive was caused by years of bullying as a child.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#73

Post by dangerface » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

codegladiator wrote: post #6

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

> Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment ?

> So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment ?

The point of prison to rehabilitate so yes. If we are just putting people in prison to get rid of them then why not actually get rid of them? If you don't believe in rehabilitation then life in prison is an expensive and cruel torture in comparison to just ending them.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#74

Post by zozbot234 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:22 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #68

bane wrote: post #62

I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to occur. Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator, you are taught a lesson by such…

> I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance policies against bullying. It's pretty simple, this has a political answer: people believe that life is hard and that "it's tough out there", hence it's important for school to "toughen up" kids. It's as simple as that. Social darwinism is a creeping ideology that nobody really questions or talk about, but it's there, despite the presence…

> If you ask people "should we protect the weak?", at the end of the day, people will answer "no, it's too difficult to protect the weak"

Isn't "protecting the weak" the whole point of civilized society over barbarism? Life is hard enough already, why make it even harder by tolerating aggressive and violent behavior from others?

It's not "toughening up" anyone, it's creating an environment where the worst offenders are precisely those who perceive themselves as "winners" and as "stronger" than others. Surely that has to be totally misguided - the only people who would support this are those who are themselves inclined towards bullying, and towards developing contempt and hate for their perceived outgroups.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#75

Post by dangerface » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:30 PM UTC

codegladiator wrote: post #14

devoply wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, they will have wives, girlfriends, and children; they may eventually have employees. You can not stop them period. They are a part of the human population. They can not be weeded out.

Bullies bully when they know they can get away with it (so does criminals). I just fail to follow your narrative. I would alternatively suggest to make the punishment severe and make sure bullies can't get away with it.

> Bullies bully when they know they can get away with it (so does criminals).

If they are facing reparations like rehabilitation they got caught.

> I would alternatively suggest to make the punishment severe and make sure bullies can't get away with it.

Harsher punishments do not deter people from committing crimes [0]

I get the sentiment but if you want results you got to face the reality.

[0] https://www.amnestyusa.org/a-clear-scientific-consensus-that...

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#76

Post by boomlinde » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:31 PM UTC

ukj wrote: post #43

afandian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

I never quite understood the pragmatic purpose of Approach 1. If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it? Combine with Hanlon’s razor and indeed - victims become bullies when they default to Approach 1 when harm (rather than misunderstanding) is perceived.

> If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it?

Maybe you never understood it because you implicitly assume that punishment can't have measurable, positive effect. What's the basis of that assumption?

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#77

Post by redleggedfrog » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:32 PM UTC

empath75 wrote: post #58

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no…

For me it started with bullying from my mom and continued with bullying in school. The only thing that pulled me out of it was time and MDMA. I don’t think I got my shit together until my mid 30s. Now I’ve got a family and a successful career. But I could have very easily have ended up drunk in a gutter somewhere.

Your Mom?! Holy crap, that's a source that hadn't occurred to me.

Good job getting it together - that must have been a tough row to hoe.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#78

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:39 PM UTC

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no…

I don't feel like "confidence" has much to do with it. In order to be successful, one must be willing to fail. As the saying goes, "The master has failed more times than the student has even tried". But if your every minor failure is met with overwhelming negative reinforcement then you learn that failure is bad and avoid it as much as possible.

I also kinda disagree with the "self-esteem" as a metric, but only because it seems to me that people try to solve that problem by telling people they're great and did good work even when they aren't and didn't. I think it is much more important for the message to be that failure isn't really a reflection of your worth as a person.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#79

Post by thatcat » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:39 PM UTC

s_kilk wrote: post #47

ukj wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never quite understood the pragmatic purpose of Approach 1. If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it? Combine with Hanlon’s razor and indeed - victims become bullies when they default to Approach 1 when harm (rather than misunderstanding) is perceived.

> If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it? But it does, the positive effect is in the mind state of the punisher, or the Type-1 people being discussed here. Now you're right of course, the punishment does not improve the situation, but it sure gives these folks that little squirt of feel-good chemicals and that's what really matters to them.

If the original problem was a lifetime of low self-esteem of the victim after being bullied, then it seems they have improved their outlook over the long term - rather than the ephemeral boost you imply.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#80

Post by bonoboTP » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #50

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no…

Likewise if people with unchallenged confidence get to run things, bad things tend to happen and there is a difference in being confident and projecting it to others. Understanding is often followed by humility.

> Likewise if people with unchallenged confidence get to run things, bad things tend to happen

They usually grow in the process and get ahead of the too careful and doubtful ones.

Throughout growing up I regularly thought other guys knew so much more things than me on various topics and often didn't dare to pitch in and felt like I couldn't contribute. Then most of the times, just a little later I realized how much they were just clumsily piecing together phrases they heard here and there but didn't really know what they were really talking about.

This includes topics like WWII history, computers, political ideology (communism, nazism), sex, sports, and all sorts of stuff they probably heard from their parents or older siblings.

An enthusiastic, confident kid (let's say 10-14 years) can just talk so much nonsense on and on without being disturbed in the slightest (adults tend to be more mindful of their own gaps of knowledge and are more afraid of embarrassment). But their peers won't know better and will be impressed.

Step by step it even continued to university. People would confidently talk about things I didn't know much about (AI stuff, Linux, various flamewars) and only later did I realize that they were mainly putting together pieces of arguments they heard here and there without any deep understanding.

I was too careful not to make mistakes and didn't hone my arguing and convincing skills nearly as much as these types of guys did.

What I want to say is that it's okay to be wrong sometimes. This is a message to specific types of people. Some people need to be more careful and introspective, but others are already too introspective and second guess themselves too much. For the latter, you need to relax and be okay with making rookie mistakes, getting called out etc. It's okay to discuss and give your opinion on things you're not fully knowledgeable about. Perhaps people will sometimes think you're stupid, but it's in active discussion how your opinions will get refined. Maybe you'll "cringe" about your early opinions after a few years, but it's still the quicker way.