How bullying may shape adolescent brains • Hacker News Board

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#41

Post by squarefoot » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:40 AM UTC

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Bullies often reflect the environment they're grown into: bad, absent, abusive or too demanding parents etc. They should be helped before resorting to punishment, but any attempt is deemed to fail if their family refuses to cooperate, which is the most likely case since it implies admitting they suck at parenting.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#42

Post by bloak » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:41 AM UTC

Dude2029 wrote: post #3

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

No, they deserve to be punished. Is there counselling for rapists?

Oh yes. Those clever psychologists even invented a counselling system that increased the rate of reoffending from 8% to 10%:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49973318

Edit: Obviously I would be in favour of counselling that decreased the rate of reoffending.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#43

Post by ukj » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:46 AM UTC

afandian wrote: post #21

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

I never quite understood the pragmatic purpose of Approach 1.

If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it?

Combine with Hanlon’s razor and indeed - victims become bullies when they default to Approach 1 when harm (rather than misunderstanding) is perceived.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#44

Post by burntoutfire » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:58 AM UTC

harlanji wrote: post #34

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no…

Sounds right. I was always talented and successful until 2014 when I started getting bullied, when I moved to SF. It’s been downhill since then. I’m now homeless with faded skills and vocabulary and no confidence. Feels like I’ll never get back to a normal life, and indeed at each job the bullying has become more intense and flagrant.

You need to work for normal company (not brogrammers startups). At most places, there is simply no bullying, so your problem will solve itself.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#45

Post by Nasrudith » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:03 PM UTC

chimprich wrote: post #25

afandian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

> Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" This seems to be the approach used by many (most?) people in online forums when discussing controversial topics. "Your opinion hurts me, so I'm going to be as offensive as possible in return". It doesn't seem to work very well. HN is maybe a bit more approach #2.

Basic game theory element - reciprocity. If there are no consequences there is nothing to lose from being an asshole. Hence the behaviors seen when people they have or believe they have impunity.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#46

Post by Nasrudith » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:07 PM UTC

andoofthewoods wrote: post #38

zozbot234 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the worst/most visible bullies probably have narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies. Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. "Their own psychology" is all about thinking of the world in zero-sum terms, where they win if others lose. The only approach that can partially make up for such an attitude is cognitive-behavioral training, and the…

that's a huge assumption you're making. Narcissists and Sociopaths make up 1% of the population each. To characterise most young bullies as narcissists/sociopaths when A - Their brains are still developing, and B - They're at an impressionable age where their sociability is highly moulded by their environment (e.g. parents) is disingenuous.

I suspect we have even worse matters than the 1% - they are often contagious as you see their actions and rationalizations adopted by not technically sociopaths and narcissists because they are rewarded for it. And just like other conditioned for behavior done independently of when it would actually help them.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#47

Post by s_kilk » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:07 PM UTC

ukj wrote: post #43

afandian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

I never quite understood the pragmatic purpose of Approach 1. If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it? Combine with Hanlon’s razor and indeed - victims become bullies when they default to Approach 1 when harm (rather than misunderstanding) is perceived.

> If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it?

But it does, the positive effect is in the mind state of the punisher, or the Type-1 people being discussed here.

Now you're right of course, the punishment does not improve the situation, but it sure gives these folks that little squirt of feel-good chemicals and that's what really matters to them.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#48

Post by afandian » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:07 PM UTC

ukj wrote: post #43

afandian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

I never quite understood the pragmatic purpose of Approach 1. If punishment has no measurable, positive effect - why do it? Combine with Hanlon’s razor and indeed - victims become bullies when they default to Approach 1 when harm (rather than misunderstanding) is perceived.

That's what I mean about it being incumbent to try to understand. It may not be "logical" but it still happens, so we should try to work out why.

Perhaps there is some evolutionary reason. Perhaps it is, itself, part of the cycle of abuse. Perhaps it's just easier to be nasty than nice.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#49

Post by danarmak » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:08 PM UTC

afandian wrote: post #21

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

> I think it's emcumbent on approach 2 to try and understand why people act like approach 1.

For many (most?) people, it's just a matter of values. Punishment of evildoers, justice, revenge, enforcement of the law, are not judged on the merits of preventing future offences, they're desirable in their own right.

These values are widespread and are part of the 'natural' or 'default' repertoire of human social behavior. Different cultures encourage them to different extents, and channel them differently, and of course differ a lot on what is offensive and deserving of punishment and how much. But I don't think it's difficult to understand why people desire these things.

Even if everyone agrees that rehabilitative justice is better for reducing crime, it's a separate moral decision to value reducing crime over other things like justice (fairness) or punishment (negative consequences for infringing on rights).

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#50

Post by raxxorrax » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 12:09 PM UTC

TrackerFF wrote: post #28

Here's my take: For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence. If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence. It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies, If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no…

Likewise if people with unchallenged confidence get to run things, bad things tend to happen and there is a difference in being confident and projecting it to others.

Understanding is often followed by humility.