The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#71

Post by lovich » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:28 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #27

prepend wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the way we take care of people is by providing many diverse training paths and transparency. Not just college age programs but lifelong learning where it’s possible to learn to code or weld or teach or whatever. Our libraries and community colleges should include more low cost certification and structured learning programs where people can explore interests. I think this is very different from the high cost 4…

What skills are people going to learn in a week that employers aren't already willing to provide training for? Are things so broken on the employer side that they won't take a 1 week risk on a new hire?

Having worked as a low level manager at places that are "metrics driven", what I have seen is that teams are given average metrics for the team to hit that are legitimately roughly between the output of a senior and junior engineer. What happens next is that when anyone below this average, i.e. all the juniors, it would show up on a graph and I would be tasked with "fixing" their stats to be above average. Rinse and repeat this cycle a few times and suddenly were not hiring any juniors or the job postings say "Junior" but describe a senior.

This is for software engineering which is a in demand field, I can't imagine how bad it would be for a field where there was a glut of people trying to apply

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#72

Post by chillacy » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #63

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. Can somebody go into depth on this? Everyday I interact with people who have jobs that suck way more than coding and pay way less. Why wouldn't people want to work 40 hours remotely with full benefits making decent wages?

A scenario would be something like you and your entire family live somewhere, and you make a good income that allows you to have a decent life, and now that income stream is gone and you’re expected to retrain after who knows how long to “learn 2 code” and then somehow get another high-paying job. What go back to college? A coding boot camp? Uproot you’re family to move to San Francisco and compete with 20 year old k…

Something like Venture for America?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#73

Post by klyrs » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:29 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #21

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

I don’t think people have a right to a job. But I do think that we as a society have a responsibility for baseline care of everyone. When we can’t depend on the profits of individual’s labor to support them for life any more - which will increasingly be the case according to the current trajectory - something else must be done. This goes beyond the very real issues of wealth disparity and to a much more fundamental p…

> I don’t think people have a right to a job.

Pragmatic considerations may override your personal beliefs in this matter. American culture strongly ties self-worth to productivity. Take away folks' ability to meaningfully contribute to society, and they will cease to see themselves as a part of that society. On the other hand, we have a strong cultural identity surrounding gun ownership, and we're seeing rapid polarization in politics. So what's the natural consequence when your populace is bored, disenfranchised and heavily armed? Sounds like a powderkeg to me

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#74

Post by Aloha » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

throwawayjava wrote: post #36

avar wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement Is it? I've watched a lot of modern car assembly line videos and it doesn't seem to be hard or backbreaking at all. Boring and tedious? Sure, here's one for GM's best selling vehicle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nr3I-Fddv8 At no point do you see anyone lift something heavy without the assistance of overhead…

Yes, it is hard work. That's a promotional video showing you what the most automated parts look like when automation goes perfectly. Not everything is so automated, and everything doesn't always go perfectly.

Exactly, it also doesn't cover stuff like, the stamping plants and other stuff - there is more that goes into cars than just vehicle assembly.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#75

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:30 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

[deleted]

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#76

Post by microcolonel » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #68

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

I would add that while people may take pride in work, that doesn't mean they'll work for pride alone.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#77

Post by fzeroracer » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

blunte wrote: post #4

One person’s right to keep a job is not greater than humanity’s right to reasonable progress. It’s cases like these that give unions a bad name.

Would you be willing to say the same thing were it your head on the proverbial chopping block? Would you be willing to lose your career, your only source of income and potentially more as a consequence, such as your home?

Are you willing to right now, make the same sacrifice in the name of progress for humanity?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#78

Post by Aloha » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

dugditches wrote: post #61

Aloha wrote: post #9

I'm skeptical that the labor differential is as big as this article implies frankly. This strike is pretty straightforward in cause, GM wants to pay less, and wants their employees to cover more of their healthcare costs, the Union isnt okay with this. Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement - and while the transition to electric cars may slightly reduce…

>Working in an auto plant is hard, backbreaking work that will leave you physically broken by retirement Maybe 80 years ago. These fellas workin the forges and lifting those blocks certainly went home more sore than someone operating a pneumatic driver all day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bT6txm4RpA There is so many ergonomic and Health/Safety stuff now. Maybe it's hyperbole, but I wouldn't call auto assembly fa…

there is more that goes into cars than just vehicle assembly, for example, stamping and casting plants (and yes, GM still stamps and casts it's own body components) - its still highly repetitive motions - so while its better now, its still not an easy job, and will wear your body out.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#79

Post by LeoPanthera » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

Erudite_Genius wrote: post #58

Right now, electric cars are a stupid choice. Half the range, 50x the refuel time, and triple the cost of any gasoline-powered alternative. The day you can buy a $15,000 car that gets 1,000 miles of range that takes 5 minutes to charge at every currently existing gas station will be the day the gasoline-powered car goes extinct.

Right now, gas cars are a stupid choice. You have to plan your trips around refuelling, instead of leaving the house every day with 100% charge. The running costs mean that over the lifetime of the car, it will cost you far more than an EV. Not to mention the cost and inconvenience of replacing the oil and brake pads - and this is all before we get to the gross emissions from your tailpipe.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#80

Post by chillacy » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #68

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

> People don't want "hand outs" or "charity", they want to do something to generate value

Agreed that it will be a cultural shift: there is a divide between meaning and economics.

People need meaning in life, but meaningful work and economic value aren't always the same.

Raising children or providing caregiving to the elderly can be very meaningful and happens to pay poorly. Building community is incredibly meaningful, and is usually volunteer work right now.

> People go all in on retraining (even though it obviously can't work for everyone)

I've heard that federal retraining programs have a success rate (defined as difference between placebo of nothing) of 0-15%. The current government solution to displaced workers is in practice is getting on disability.