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The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

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Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#72

It’s a rare parent that wants their children questioning what they’re told. It’s one of the reasons the Greeks killed Socrates. That’s the fundamental aspect of human nature that needs to somehow be changed. It’s not that hard to develop critical thinking skills — but parents don’t want it, corporations don’t want it, politicians don’t want it. Where is the constituency that is going to push for and pay for critical…

> corporations don’t want it, politicians don’t want it

Hmm, the question that then arises in my mind is: are parents that do encourage their children to question them properly preparing those children for a society that will disregard them with that attitude?

(Working from your assumptions here - I'm not necessarily sure how widespread the disregard for a questioning attitude is.)

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question wasn't selling points, but design foundations. The principle of technology reducing trust is a general one I'd first considered a few years ago. Bitcoin is a specific instance, as are numerous other surveilance, manipulation, and scoring systems. Shoshana Zuboff beat me to the punch by a good three-to-four decades with her three laws of automation and information, in The Age of the Smart Machine (publish…

Without the selling point, it wouldn't have been adopted and we wouldn't be talking about it. I think we're talking past each other, and perhaps I didn't make my original point clear: Attributing a lack of trust to specific technologies themselves is a red herring that obscures the deeper cause for the trend. In fact I'd go further and say that the usual pattern is the adoption of insecure naive technologies, with de…

Attributing a lack of trust to specific technologies themselves is a red herring

And my case is that it's not. More specifically: advances in communications and information technologies inherently and intrinsically undermine trust mechanisms in institutions and human interactions. They do this, in part, by replacing that trust with technological surveillance and verification. Which is, I'll note, more scalable, and possibly more reliable. But also insidiously corrupting of the social mechanics which have been established over time.

I'm probably not expressing this well, for several reasons. One is that I'm still thinking through this, and I'm not entirely convinced of it myself, though I'm fairly confident of the relationship.

In geographically-distributed pre-technological societies -- any empire (Roman, Chinese, Persian, Hindu, British), you had institutions -- business, courts, religions, governments -- which opereated without anything remotely resembling high-speed communications. Letters would take weeks, or months, to cross oceans. High-speed communications involved couriers on horseback -- the Pony Express largely replicated a 2,000 year old technology first established on the Royal Road of Persia, in which messages could travel 1,600 miles in about nine days. More liesurely transits took three months.

Ships sailed only from May to November, and couldn't sail close to the wind. For six months of the year there was no effective communications. Explorations and even cargo voyages might take several years.

In all of this all parties had to trust the others. Perhaps not perfectly, but sufficiently. And there were numerous mechanisms in place to effect this.

When we talk of technologies -- photographs, audio, video -- allowing us to "no longer rely on eyewitness testimony", what we're saying is that we are deprecating human testimony. Not without reason, but also not without consequence. And when the application of technologies presumes distrust, as social credit systems, email and keystroke monitoring, and pervasive closed-circuit video all do, the rot runs deeper.

If the trends aren't absolutely inherent and intrinsic, they're very, very close to that.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have been a particularly poor student, subject to a particularly poor education. Signs suggest neither lagged the median by much.

Don’t be too hard on yourself. I get stung by the Guardian April fool story almost every year. It typically takes at least 2 paragraphs to spot what are obviously absurd stories. To me the April fool stories highlight the biggest issue with media corps... being normally-trustworthy actually makes them very powerful on the occasions when they are mistaken or misused.

The April Fools stuff I typically catch.

Snopes has fooled me, however:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/category/lost-legends/

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#75

I think a lot of people don't really care or want to know what is going on in the world, they prefer watching "entertaining" high speed car chases, tornado reports, animal rescues, special guest "experts" that shout ideas over one another, and whatever other wild things the news can come up with these days. I'm in Poland right now, the latest "big" news was that the son of some rich guy died jet skiing and that a thu…

> I think a lot of people don't really care or want to know what is going on in the world, they prefer watching "entertaining" high speed car chases, tornado reports, animal rescues, special guest "experts" that shout ideas over one another, and whatever other wild things the news can come up with these days.

I agree, and I believe it's because most people don't consume news to gain a true picture about the world. They consume news to have stuff to talk about with other people, to have "social objects". Almost none of the news is actionable or even relevant to a regular person anyway, so the primary value of a news piece is whether or not it's interesting, and whether everyone else watches the same news (otherwise it wouldn't work as a topic for casual conversations). Whether or not the story is true is irrelevant.

This explains what news you see reported. People killed by a thunderstorm in the mountains is something easy to talk about. You can marvel their stupidity (being in the mountains during storm). Similarly for jet ski casualties. Sewer dumped into Vistula river (another fresh topic from Poland)? Oh the Incompetent Government / the Evil Companies! Venezuela and Hong Kong are complex political topics with no clear right solution, with no clear heroes or villains (at least, not when you dig into the complexities). It's not something suitable for casual conversation.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#76
post #2

> "A team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology compared the spread of fake news and real news on Twitter in a 2018 study published in the journal Science. Looking at 126,000 tweets of news stories over the previous 11 years, they found that fake news stories were 70% more likely to be retweeted than true stories . Real news took about six times as long to reach a benchmark audience of 1,500 people as fake new…

"A lie can run 'round the world before the truth has got its boots on." There's a novel called The Truth that pokes fun at this idea through a story about the birth of daily newspapers and tabloids in a fictional city-state. The quote that I have in mind is a little long to format here, so I'll pastebin it: https://pastebin.com/T2YjtTN2

Great money quote: "what people think they want is news, but what they really crave is olds."

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#77
post #9

I think I have the opposite problem now where I don't believe anything I'm told. Especially from friends and relatives.

I get the impression that that's the desired effect of foreign-funded fake news compaigns.

While I agree with the sentiment, I'd like to point out that not all of them are foreign-funded.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#78

I tend to be very skeptical and have a good sense of whether somebody's feeding me bullsh*t. I'm genuinely surprised by some of the things I see those around me just blindly accept. I hope when I'm a parent, I can instill a healthy sense skepticism in my child.

My proudest moment of parenting so far was when my son told me how much he appreciated being brought up to question and not to blindly accept groupthink.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fake news isn't bound to the limits of truth. Fake news can be generated with far greater volume than truth. Fake news can be specifically engineered to appeal to various cognitive biases promoting virality. Truth serves reality. Falsehood can, and very often does, serve specific partisan interests who have a hand in promoting its spread. These are four powerful factors favouring falsehoods and their dissemination.

What you have to come to terms with is that there is not a single 'objective' truth but multiple often contradictory truths. Individual Perception and psychology in addition to cultural and social norms play a large role as well.

> there is not a single 'objective' truth but multiple often contradictory truths

This is something that's usually said by people who want you to drop your defenses and believe in lies they concocted.

To the best of my knowledge, there's nothing we've seen so far that would suggest we aren't all inhabiting the same, shared, physical universe - so there is objective truth. There are facts about the world around us, and when you're reporting them accurately, you're reporting the truth. If you deny those facts, you are reporting falsehoods.

Now one of those facts is that we all observe the world through a limited and biased sensory and cognitive apparatus. We can't perceive the entirety of the universe, only a small fraction of it. This sometimes leads to "contradictory truths".

The best analogy I've come up with so far is projections. Imagine the universe as a 3D space, and anything of interest as a 3D shape - but what each of us is observing is 2D projections of it. So there is a cylinder in that universe, representing an issue. I can claim the issue is circular. You can claim the issue is rectangular. We've both identified the true aspects of an issue, but our views are incomplete. Our views combined can help us understand the full form of the issue. But what's most important, if someone comes in and says they see a spiked star, they're just wrong. There's no "multiple often contradictory truths here".

This is the way I like to think about the world and debates on issues. Each of us operates on a set of facts and intuitions that are a result of a heavy dimensionality reduction. We operate on projections. But there is an objective reality, of which our conflicting views are different projections, and that reality makes it so that only some projections are valid, and others are wrong.

And just because an issue is primarily social doesn't mean it's magically not about the observable reality. Human beings are physical, material objects. Just damn complicated ones.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without the selling point, it wouldn't have been adopted and we wouldn't be talking about it. I think we're talking past each other, and perhaps I didn't make my original point clear: Attributing a lack of trust to specific technologies themselves is a red herring that obscures the deeper cause for the trend. In fact I'd go further and say that the usual pattern is the adoption of insecure naive technologies, with de…

Attributing a lack of trust to specific technologies themselves is a red herring And my case is that it's not. More specifically: advances in communications and information technologies inherently and intrinsically undermine trust mechanisms in institutions and human interactions. They do this, in part, by replacing that trust with technological surveillance and verification. Which is, I'll note, more scalable, and p…

And another facet of that trust breakdown:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20864659

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