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The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

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Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#31

Post by rntz »

dredmorbius wrote: post #27

The conclusion of this WSJ piece -- organ of the Murdoch disinformation empire, though generally the WSJ's news reportage continues to enjoy a reputation no longer afforded its opinion pages -- is that we need better media literacy. That is: it's a plea for a dodge of responsibility by media organisations themselves. My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institution…

> The conclusion of this WSJ piece [...] is that we need better media literacy.

> My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institutions.

I've noticed that on issues that provoke strong feeling, folks often put things in opposition that really aren't opposed. This is a great example. These aren't opposites. They're simply two different approaches to the same problem. They're not mutually exclusive in the least. Nothing about teaching people to think critically harms or opposes holding media institutions to account for what they say or vice versa.

Anyway, I don't think more accountability for media institutions is a bad idea, but I can't help thinking it alone won't fix the problem. The internet isn't going away, and it's fundamentally a many-to-many medium. Unless some authority systematically censors and reviews public fora --- I'm talking about everyday conversations and posts on Facebook, reddit, chatrooms, HN, Slack --- we're not going to be able to go back to the days when fact-checked journalism could keep misinformation, propaganda, and conspiracy theorizing at bay. (Hell, I guess those days never existed, but I think these problems have gotten worse.)

Perhaps the best point of comparison for the effect of the internet as a new medium is the invention of the printing press. Generally regarded as a good thing in the long run, but it led almost directly to centuries of religious warfare in Europe. Not a heartening thought.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#32

Post by dredmorbius »

rntz wrote: post #31
dredmorbius wrote: post #27

The conclusion of this WSJ piece -- organ of the Murdoch disinformation empire, though generally the WSJ's news reportage continues to enjoy a reputation no longer afforded its opinion pages -- is that we need better media literacy. That is: it's a plea for a dodge of responsibility by media organisations themselves. My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institution…

> The conclusion of this WSJ piece [...] is that we need better media literacy. > My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institutions. I've noticed that on issues that provoke strong feeling, folks often put things in opposition that really aren't opposed. This is a great example. These aren't opposites. They're simply two different approaches to the same problem. Th…

My point is that:

WSJ put the onus elsewhere than themselves.

That this is a long-established tendency of the empowered. See Annie Leonard on "anti-littering" campaigns (responsibility dodging by manufacturers of disposable packaging and goods so packaged): http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102... (PDF). It's very much a blame-the-victim approach.

That there is no mention at all of accountability for the distributors, amplifiers, curators, and promotors of disinformation.

Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent. I've taken to calling them out.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#33

Post by esmi »

kibibu wrote: post #17
smitty1e wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spectacle of seeing a nominal fact-checking site go after an overtly satirical one has been an astounding result for our day. I like to point out the rose colored glasses of the early internet, when the awesome signal-to-noise ratio was going to have a catalytic effect on human knowledge. #Whoops

Do you remember Bonsai Kitten, and the breathlessly horrified email campaigns against it? People have had difficulty determining real from fake for a long time.

It’s way older than that. This is just one I know off the top of my head. I’m sure there are many other, older, examples.

https://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/colonial-life-...

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#34

Post by atoav »

rntz wrote: post #31
dredmorbius wrote: post #27

The conclusion of this WSJ piece -- organ of the Murdoch disinformation empire, though generally the WSJ's news reportage continues to enjoy a reputation no longer afforded its opinion pages -- is that we need better media literacy. That is: it's a plea for a dodge of responsibility by media organisations themselves. My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institution…

> The conclusion of this WSJ piece [...] is that we need better media literacy. > My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institutions. I've noticed that on issues that provoke strong feeling, folks often put things in opposition that really aren't opposed. This is a great example. These aren't opposites. They're simply two different approaches to the same problem. Th…

Furrhermore I’d argue that media literacy is a critical skill nowadays. However the conclusion is also true: there needs to be a national press agency which acts independently and is allowed to issue fines and force corrections on factually false statements. If a newspaper lies about something, they have to print the correction on the front page. If the front page has not enough space, tough luck.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#35

Post by empath75 »

It’s a rare parent that wants their children questioning what they’re told. It’s one of the reasons the Greeks killed Socrates.

That’s the fundamental aspect of human nature that needs to somehow be changed. It’s not that hard to develop critical thinking skills — but parents don’t want it, corporations don’t want it, politicians don’t want it. Where is the constituency that is going to push for and pay for critical thinking skills in childhood education?

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#36

Post by 50656E6973 »

dredmorbius wrote: post #32
rntz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The conclusion of this WSJ piece [...] is that we need better media literacy. > My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institutions. I've noticed that on issues that provoke strong feeling, folks often put things in opposition that really aren't opposed. This is a great example. These aren't opposites. They're simply two different approaches to the same problem. Th…

My point is that: WSJ put the onus elsewhere than themselves. That this is a long-established tendency of the empowered. See Annie Leonard on "anti-littering" campaigns (responsibility dodging by manufacturers of disposable packaging and goods so packaged): http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102... (PDF). It's very much a blame-the-victim approach. That there is no mention at all of accountabili…

>Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent.

Wouldn't it be great if we could help train others to be able to do that too?

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#37

Post by buboard »

Reedx wrote: post #2

> "A team at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology compared the spread of fake news and real news on Twitter in a 2018 study published in the journal Science. Looking at 126,000 tweets of news stories over the previous 11 years, they found that fake news stories were 70% more likely to be retweeted than true stories . Real news took about six times as long to reach a benchmark audience of 1,500 people as fake new…

Likely the fake news were more sensational

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#38

Post by popularwarfare »

RyanAF7 wrote: post #11

Not to mention the political advantage of framing your opponents base as having poor judgment or lacking discernment by producing fake stories you know they are more likely to read, share and believe than your own base. Politics today is far more deceptive because the speed of delivery and feedback for communications allows it to be. Only going to get worse unless a new platform/network/protocol is created for the fu…

It's always been this way, politics is a zero sum game.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#39

Post by dredmorbius »

50656E6973 wrote: post #36
dredmorbius wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that: WSJ put the onus elsewhere than themselves. That this is a long-established tendency of the empowered. See Annie Leonard on "anti-littering" campaigns (responsibility dodging by manufacturers of disposable packaging and goods so packaged): http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102... (PDF). It's very much a blame-the-victim approach. That there is no mention at all of accountabili…

>Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent. Wouldn't it be great if we could help train others to be able to do that too?

It's taken me most of five decades to pick up the skill.

That bodes poorly for generalised skillsets.

There's a generalised rebuttal to calls for greater intelligence / education as a solution to problems: All the children aren't above average. And if your solution to some circumstance is to make them so, or pretend that they are, you are going to be having a bad time.

I'm not against education. I'm against having it be the only suggested remedy. Particularly from a party with a vested interest in both deflecting responsibility and creating the problem in the first place.

Re: The Problem with Believing What We’re Told

#40

Post by jadell »

redmaverick wrote: post #18

Ted Bundy's mom Louise refused to believe her son was a murderer despite all evidence to the contrary. Her son admitted that he was the culprit and only that made her come out of her denial. In a lot of third world countries it is pretty common and even expected that the average Joe will vote for whomever appeals to their emotions. Every sin of the politician is forgotten and forgiven even if the said politician has…

In a lot of first-world countries, too.
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