Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid • Hacker News Board

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#71

Post by Viliam1234 » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

techslave wrote: post #27

guitarbill wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people prefer working intensely, some people don't. So why demand 8h of presence from everybody as long as the work gets done? From my experience, policies of being in the office for hours significantly reduces productivity, as people spend more time trying to fill their days instead of doing the work. Regardless, it's patronising to effectively treat highly paid professionals like children with dumb, simplistic…

no one works in a vacuum. people need to communicate and collaborate, even when the work is prescriptive. core hours requirements stem from making sure that there are times when everyone can have rich, immediate interactions. not from childish supervision.

"There needs to be some time when everyone is here, so that we can talk" does not imply "you need to be here for 8 hours a day".

In theory, you could have a job where the core hours are just 4 hours a day (most coders do not spend more time having rich interactions), and if you succeed to get your work done, you can leave afterwards.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#72

Post by Viliam1234 » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:19 AM UTC

QuickToBan wrote: post #45

If you want to work only 34 hours, expect to proportionately get only 85% of your salary. And definitely don't expect others to work Saturdays. Don't contact your coworkers over the weekends either.

> If you want to work only 34 hours, expect to proportionately get only 85% of your salary.

It is not linear, unfortunately. For working only 34 hours, expect to get maybe 50% of your 40-hours market salary, if you are lucky. Because by standing out from the crowd, you are sending a signal that you are "somehow weird", and that is not a good signal to send.

As long as there are other people willing to work 40 hours a day, most companies won't bother making an exception for someone. Why hire a "weird" person, if there are non-weird alternatives available?

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#73

Post by Viliam1234 » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 2:24 AM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #19

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, if you're an employer and you went to a 6 hour workday: 1) you lose out on the people that can and do work 8 hours. 2) the people that only work a percentage of the 8 hours are only going to work a percentage of the 6 hours, and you'll lose out there as well. Sure, you might say, we should just work less hours and hire more people. With 3.7% unemployment, that's easier said than done.

3) It would be a more desirable job. Retention goes up and maybe you can get better people. Your employees are happier and so are their families. When you have to do "crunch time" people are less bitter.

What if you offer a 6-hour workday, and people who want to work less than 6 hours will apply... because this is still the best existing alternative for them? The retention goes up, but your employees will be unhappy, because they actually wanted less than 6 hours.

Meanwhile, the company that requires 8 hours will get a lot of people who are okay with working 8 hours (if that includes 2 or 4 hours on social networks), and a few people who are not okay with that, but still happier than your employees on average.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#74

Post by gerikson » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 8:08 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #66

gerikson wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I can sort of understand why people confuse 'lose' and 'loose' due to incorrect spellchecking, but 'loosing' isn't even correct English.

> I can sort of understand why people confuse 'lose' and 'loose' due to incorrect spellchecking, but 'loosing' isn't even correct English. Yes, it is. “loosing” : “loose” :: ”losing” (the verb form, not the adjective) : “lose” If you understand mistakenly using “loose” in place of “lose” you should be equally able to understand using the gerund or present participle of “loose” in place of the gerund or present partic…

Both you and NeedMoreTea are correct and I can't believe I missed that. Thanks!

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#75

Post by mattmanser » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 9:51 AM UTC

Viliam1234 wrote: post #69

thirdsun wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My supervisors understand that some days I'm not going touch code, instead I'll spend my time on education by keeping up with new tech, or, writing docs.. anything but talk with other co-workers distracting them. Couldn‘t agree more. There are days I spend exclusively reading and thinking. I regard keeping up on technology, thinking about potential approaches and solutions to various problems we’re facing as an ess…

> There are days I spend exclusively reading and thinking. And you admit to do so openly at your daily agile meetings? Because for me, the problem is that every day I am expected to produce some code, and reading is something... that is kinda supposed to happen... but at the same time it is also not supposed to actually take time, at least not on the scale of days.

That's the problem with daily standups, they're micro-management.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#76

Post by dllthomas » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #67

gerikson wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here. I can sort of understand why people confuse 'lose' and 'loose' due to incorrect spellchecking, but 'loosing' isn't even correct English.

"Look at all those archers loosing their arrows"

That said, I bet a substantial majority of modern uses are meant to be losing, and a substantial fraction of what remains is meant to be "loosening". Maybe worth surfacing.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#77

Post by neuroticfish » Sun, Jul 07, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

> 6h * 5 + 4h on Saturday (remotely)

No thanks. I'll take my 8h * 5 and two entire days off. I agree that expecting 8 hours of productivity a day is silly but I think it's even sillier to expect me to have only one contiguous 24 hour period away from work per week and not experience burnout. Ideally the employer should set product quality standards and let us determine how to apply our weekly productivity in order to meet schedule.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#78

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 4:39 AM UTC

Viliam1234 wrote: post #70

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #29

There's a funny/weird dynamic with this. We all need to appear like we work as much as everyone else appears to. Looks like your teammate puts in 9 hours per day? Well you do too. Otherwise you'll look like a slacker, even though both of you get five or six hours of work done. If everyone did it, it'd be fine and you'd both get hours of time back to do anything else. What's weird is that this dynamic affects workplac…

> If you are in an org that actually lets people work great flexible hours you won't advertise it too much, for fear of attracting workers whose primary goal is to slack, or getting a reputation an org of slackers. This reminds me of: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/05/01/neutral-vs-conservativ... > The moral of the story is: if you’re against witch-hunts, and you promise to found your own little utopian community wh…

Honestly, that's kind of what I've begun to think of (axiomatically) as where government needs to step in. When society's collective interest is in an equilibrium which it's no one's individual interest to move towards, the incentives need changing.

I have no idea how to fix it, but you're spot on that you can't change it individually unless it's all at once. Or if we somehow figure out a better incentive structure so that individual and collective best decisions match.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#79

Post by thirdsun » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 5:22 AM UTC

Viliam1234 wrote: post #69

thirdsun wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My supervisors understand that some days I'm not going touch code, instead I'll spend my time on education by keeping up with new tech, or, writing docs.. anything but talk with other co-workers distracting them. Couldn‘t agree more. There are days I spend exclusively reading and thinking. I regard keeping up on technology, thinking about potential approaches and solutions to various problems we’re facing as an ess…

> There are days I spend exclusively reading and thinking. And you admit to do so openly at your daily agile meetings? Because for me, the problem is that every day I am expected to produce some code, and reading is something... that is kinda supposed to happen... but at the same time it is also not supposed to actually take time, at least not on the scale of days.

Admittedly, I'm in a comfortable position that allows me to be very liberal with how I spend my time at work. I'm a developer at a small company that isn't focused on tech, but manufactures physical porducts - there aren't any agile meetings and to the rest of the staff that kind of work looks like black magic.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#80

Post by lukaszkups » Mon, Jul 08, 2019, 7:07 AM UTC

davidjnelson wrote: post #55

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #15

My first software manager said that the most you can get out of people is five hours of real work a day. She also said that programmers need to learn to tell when the most productive thing they can do is go look out the window.

It depends. 22 years here. I’ve had stretches of months I did 16 hours a day of programming, including weekends.. Literally roll out of bed, code, eat while coding, sleep. Most productive I’ve ever been, was in a complete flow state. Was my choice though, not mandated. These days I do it for 8 hours or so, and not on weekends, other than weekend / weeknight research. This is remotely though, so it’s easy to get in th…

I think many of us were at this place once. I did as well during my 20s. Now, I'm in my early 30s and I've found that working for couple days for e.g. 12+ hour long straight will lead me to a huge lag of energy that I'll be recovering from for a longer amount of time that I've spent of working.