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How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

nytimes.com

71–80 of 113 posts

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#71

> About 30 sites made it easy to sign up for services but particularly hard to cancel, requiring phone calls or other procedures. The Times requires people to talk with a representative online or by phone to cancel subscriptions, but the researchers did not study it or other publishing sites. Nice that the editor was at least allowed to point out that their own employer employs many of these "dark patterns".

Strange that an NYT got facts about NYT wrong:

* You don't have to "talk" with a CSR online, it's a chat window

* You can cancel with an email to unsubscribe@nytimes.com

* By disabling auto-renewal the subscription will automatically be canceled at the end of the subscription period

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#72
post #26
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, I'd actually been considering a Times subscription for a while. That's going to be a hell no from me now.

I've heard that if you use privacy.com with a California mailing address they let you cancel online due to California law.

Not true, the law applies to making it easy to opt-out of automatic renewal

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtm...

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#73
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we really need to deconstruct all of economics here? The market consists of those individual buyers and sellers. But they set the value together. No single buyer can set the value of the items they want to buy in the supermarket. They buy them or they don't buy them. In response to that, the seller adjusts the price. If not enough people buy it, the seller lowers the price, if he runs out too fast, he raises the p…

>So if a potential buyer sees something 70% discounted, that implies that originally, the market determined that higher price as a fair price: a price that at least some buyers would pay for this item. The buyer trusts the market that that is apparently a fair price, but today the buyer is in luck, because it's been discounted to below the usual market price! This whole paragraph is wrong in my opinion. A 70% discoun…

We're not talking about what the law says, we're talking about whether it's misleading.

If the amount from which it was discounted is utterly meaningless, then why mention it at all? Because the seller wants the buyer to believe the item is more valuable than it really is. That's why it's misleading.

The fact that the deception is legal, doesn't mean it's not deceptive. It is deceptive. It is very clearly, obviously, intentionally deceptive. The seller wants the buyer to believe they're getting a great deal that they're not getting, because the product was never actually meaningfully sold at that original price. That original price only exists to mislead the buyer.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the abuse? A seller has the right to sell at whatever price they want (assuming non emergency situations). If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%. The very use of ambiguous wording is a signal that it's a sales tactic. No one advertises 50% off the median average sale price in the past 30 days, because the…

You say elsewhere in the thread; you and others use discounts because it's a psychological trick that makes buyers feel good - and thus more likely to buy. > If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%. Sure, you can do that. Or, you could simply list the price that lets you have some margin while still being competitiv…

>Sure, you can do that. Or, you could simply list the price that lets you have some margin while still being competitive. Why would you do the former rather than the latter? Only because of a clear intent to abuse the customer.

JCPenney tried it, lost a ton of business, and had to reverse course. Turns out, buyers like being given a fake marked up price and then buying at a "discount". See my other comment for source, it was a very famous example of a famous Apple executive trying to do what makes sense on paper, but not in practice.

>Words have meanings. I can't tell you what exactly "quickly" is defined, but I believe everyone reasonable would assume it's something around minutes to hours in this particular business. Ask yourself, what would you assume?

I wouldn't assume anything, because there is not enough information given by the seller. I also know that a seller's incentive is to sell, and that as a buyer, the only thing I need to be concerned with is how much I'm paying.

>I.e. until there's a clear and unambiguous statement that turns out to be purposefully false, you don't see a problem? Most lies aren't using clear and unambiguous language precisely because that makes them easier to spot; it doesn't change the fact that the intent is malicious towards your fellow human beings.

How are the courts supposed to prove intent? Especially when a seller has the legal right to change the price of their goods anytime they like. Intent also doesn't have to be malicious. As I showed in my earlier example, the sellers that use discounts make more money...because certain people like shopping at places that give big discounts, they like the feeling of getting a discount. I don't think the harm to society rises to the level of involving the courts in this case.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#75
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is the abuse? A seller has the right to sell at whatever price they want (assuming non emergency situations). If I'm a seller, I can raise the price 100% at 10AM, and then put a sign that says 70% off. And then the next day, I can reduce the price 100%. The very use of ambiguous wording is a signal that it's a sales tactic. No one advertises 50% off the median average sale price in the past 30 days, because the…

> Booking.com claiming so and so is selling out quickly! What is quickly defined as? Look, be whoever you want, but own it, don't hide behind equivocation. No one else is buying (haha) any of this. The only person you're working to convince here is yourself.

The discussion is regarding the legality of it, hence the relevance of defining quickly. It has nothing to do with "hiding behind equivocation".

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#76
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Booking.com claiming so and so is selling out quickly! What is quickly defined as? Look, be whoever you want, but own it, don't hide behind equivocation. No one else is buying (haha) any of this. The only person you're working to convince here is yourself.

The discussion is regarding the legality of it, hence the relevance of defining quickly. It has nothing to do with "hiding behind equivocation".

No, specifically it was how it's not illegal, even though it's abusive. You're disputing that it's abusive. It is certainly lying. You may be fine with it. But it's lying.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#77

> About 30 sites made it easy to sign up for services but particularly hard to cancel, requiring phone calls or other procedures. The Times requires people to talk with a representative online or by phone to cancel subscriptions, but the researchers did not study it or other publishing sites. Nice that the editor was at least allowed to point out that their own employer employs many of these "dark patterns".

Strange that an NYT got facts about NYT wrong: * You don't have to "talk" with a CSR online, it's a chat window * You can cancel with an email to unsubscribe@nytimes.com * By disabling auto-renewal the subscription will automatically be canceled at the end of the subscription period

>You don't have to "talk" with a CSR online, it's a chat window

What do you consider talking online, if not chat?

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is somewhat unfair. Most of the time, it’s a naive consumer on one side, and an army of UI experts and behavioral scientists on the other. That consumer is hopelessly outmatched, and the company will absolutely find a way to hack his or her psychology.

Citing human psychology is a sad excuse to excuse one's self from personal responsibility. You are the final arbiter of all decisions that you make. Nobody else. You are the one that is ultimately responsible. If this were loot boxes, then maybe we'd be having a different discussion, but unless they're tricking you into something other than what is advertised, then the onus ultimately falls upon you to control your d…

[deleted]

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think expecting a seller to make sure they have the lowest price compared to other sellers is ridiculous. It’s not a seller’s job to make sure the buyer is getting the lowest price. It’s not possible for a seller to know every single other seller’s price so I don’t see how anyone has a reasonable expectation to that in the first place. People like to THINK they are getting a discount. They don’t care that the actua…

People care more about feeling like they save money vs. actually saving money? If they found out they were just given the illusion of saving money vs. actually saving money who would choose the illusion? I sure as hell wouldn't it seems totally illogical.

People can search the price on their phone and compare, but many don't. There does exist a significant population that feels better getting a discount.

Re: How e-commerce sites manipulate people into buying things

#80

> About 30 sites made it easy to sign up for services but particularly hard to cancel, requiring phone calls or other procedures. The Times requires people to talk with a representative online or by phone to cancel subscriptions, but the researchers did not study it or other publishing sites. Nice that the editor was at least allowed to point out that their own employer employs many of these "dark patterns".

Strange that an NYT got facts about NYT wrong: * You don't have to "talk" with a CSR online, it's a chat window * You can cancel with an email to unsubscribe@nytimes.com * By disabling auto-renewal the subscription will automatically be canceled at the end of the subscription period

From 2014: https://canceltimes.tumblr.com

The pattern has gotten more familiar since then. It also seems like they've improved things.

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