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Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

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Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#71

Post by belorn »

lucozade wrote: post #68
fastball wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't just "replace men with women" though, as it's not clear that the reason men are in higher paid positions is because of discrimination. For example, men on average work longer hours than women, which obviously contributes to the pay gap. Men also take less vacation than women, which generally makes them "more reliable". If I have two SysOps people, and they have the same skill level, I'm probably going to pr…

> You can't just "replace men with women" though Indeed. I was just pointing out why the argument was broken. The lack of symmetry in the workforce would also mean that that's not a way to reduce the pay gap even without the assumption of a reducing wage bill. > Men also take less vacation than women Are you sure? Men are statistically likely to take more of their vacation time (in the US at least) than women. If you…

Taking the first hit on google, men work 42 min more per day when taking into consideration aspects like vacation and sick days. Every second week that almost translate to an whole additional day in difference.

"among full-time workers (those usually working 35 hours or more per week), men worked more per day than women—8.4 hours, compared with 7.9 hours. (See table 4.)"

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/atus.pdf

The questions we should ask our self is what are the incentives. How does wages, promotions, social status, health, happiness, children and social support look for men who is in the 50% that work longest vs those men who are in the 50% fewest hours at work. Then we do the same question for women.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#72

Post by belorn »

lm28469 wrote: post #60
belorn wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which data are the fools ignoring, more exactly? 1) The average income for every individual in society? 2) The average income for every working individual? 3) The average income for every full time individual? 4) The average income normalized to work hours and work position? 5) the average income normalized to work hours, work position and experience? 6) the average income normalized to work hours, work position, exp…

The first one that make them feel good about the situation. You can rationalise a lot of things by interpreting statistical analysis to support your point of view, you just have to cover it with a "duh that's the real _facts_" and move on.

That illustrate the issue between those who advocating against pay gap and those they are trying to convince. The data is not relevant, it is the fight, the struggle, the cause! It is great if there is data to support it but if not, then that is just rationalization of fools.

Each and every one of those create a different data, with different conclusion about what the issue is and what the solution are.

The first ones highlight among other things that fewer women are working in the first place. Men don't have a choice and will end up homeless and at the bottom of the social heriarcy if they don't. Women are also social expected to take care of children, and because of breastfeeding are likely to spend the time at home for the first few years. Men also die earlier, both from work accidents and from a health care that focus more on women then on men. This result in more women at the end of life not working compare to men who will instead be dead.

For social and cultural reasons, women are more likely to work part time while men are more likely to have task wage. Women are more likely stay in education for longer and look for a job until they find the right one, while men start working quickly and with more emergency. Mens social status is tied to income, while women social status is disconnected from income and benefit from social activities. Men will on average volunteer to undesirable high pay works like high risk work, night work and overtime, while women will not. Women will have more sick days and spend more time on work hours with the health care system, while men either skip going to the doctor or only do so if it doesn't conflict with work. Men are more willing to change city of occupation and move out of a social environment than women.

And after all of that we may have bias, which is the exclusive focus point of the discussion. All the above is usually ignored.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#73

Post by raducu »

lm28469 wrote: post #58
raducu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about option 3: men choose to work on jobs that pay more but are more stressful while women chose to work on more social jobs that pay less and value other things more than just pay.

You'll have to be a bit more precise because right now it's hard to tell if you're trolling or trying to make a point. In any case, the pay gap isn't a thing that can be addressed with a single sentence such as yours. It's a really simplistic point of view to say social jobs are valued other than with a salary. And I'm fairly certain that social workers, teachers and nurses get their share of stress. If anything the…

I agree stress was a bad metric, I'm sure there are other metrics some sociologists would be able to enumerate, I can just speculate based on my experience: In my country when I started studying computer science -- which was a niche area, I had 90% male colleagues; after 15 years with all the media coverage of high salary in the industry, the proportion shifted to 60-40, because the profession has become main-stream.

So another factor could be risk -- women are more risk averse than men; hence they choose more established professions where the pay is less.

Then, there's the drive and single-mindedness some high paying jobs require -- men are built that way, women are less likely to have obsessions on obscure-technical hobbies; heck, most men aren't built that way, it just happens that for those people that have such drive and single-mindedness, most of them are men.

And that's the way it is -- unless there's some moat protecting your job, due to the laws of supply and demand the higher paying jobs are the ones nobody wants to do because of risk, discomfort and so on, and those that most people cannot do because of the dedication and single-mindedness they require, and for both categories men are the likely candidates.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#74

Post by knowThySelfx »

Firadeoclus wrote: post #55
knowThySelfx wrote: post #29

Shouldn't remuneration depend on the amount of work done? Gender issue shouldn't come into it.

Should the price of something depend on the amount of work done? On how much the buyer values it? Or on the amount the buyer has to offer to outbid others? Does an employer just pay for work done, or possibly also for availability, potential, loyalty, goodwill? Edit: That said, I absolutely agree that gender isn't something that should figure in those considerations. At best it's a poor proxy for much more specific d…

I agree its not easy to quantify wage rates. It is highly context dependent. The valuation depends on many things. Still gender should not be the parameter since valuation depends on an individuals performance.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#75

Post by rhacker »

belorn wrote: post #71
lucozade wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't just "replace men with women" though Indeed. I was just pointing out why the argument was broken. The lack of symmetry in the workforce would also mean that that's not a way to reduce the pay gap even without the assumption of a reducing wage bill. > Men also take less vacation than women Are you sure? Men are statistically likely to take more of their vacation time (in the US at least) than women. If you…

Taking the first hit on google, men work 42 min more per day when taking into consideration aspects like vacation and sick days. Every second week that almost translate to an whole additional day in difference. "among full-time workers (those usually working 35 hours or more per week), men worked more per day than women—8.4 hours, compared with 7.9 hours. (See table 4.)" https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/atus.pdf…

Yes, but about 3 hours of each day that man is reading HN, so I think they're actually working less time. I think they might be posturing longer hours maybe?
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