Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

news.cornell.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 75 posts

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#51

Post by marvin »

mcv wrote: post #43
marvin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is happening at my place right now. Leadership has dictated that priority is now to even out gender imbalances rather than giving raises. Since the women in our company are heavily skewed towards lower-paying roles (QA, customer support), this means the company will avoid giving raises to the roles that actually are in demand and have strong salary growth elsewhere. Needless to say, those of us with options have…

I don't get this kind of destructive attitude. Surely the sensible thing to do when you want more equality and women are skewed towards lower paying jobs, is to hire more women in higher paying jobs? I'm all for paying people in lower-end jobs better, mind you, but using this as an excuse to hurt salary growth seems like it's intended to discredit the whole idea of gender equality. Well, unless the people involved ar…

I don't think the real intention is equality at all. I think it's scoring PR points via virtue signaling, and reducing expenses as a bonus. (Who would dare oppose a move that appears to increase equality, even if it hurts their wallet?)

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#52

Post by raducu »

lm28469 wrote: post #44

The problem of gender pay gap is a really hard one to tackle. You have to be a fool to pretend there is no issue, but the number of causes is incredible at the gender, education, industry, company and individual levels. Every time there is a public debate around that topic you end up with two major groups, one saying that women work less or are less productive because of XYZ, the other saying something close to "it's…

How about option 3: men choose to work on jobs that pay more but are more stressful while women chose to work on more social jobs that pay less and value other things more than just pay.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#53

Post by belorn »

lm28469 wrote: post #44

The problem of gender pay gap is a really hard one to tackle. You have to be a fool to pretend there is no issue, but the number of causes is incredible at the gender, education, industry, company and individual levels. Every time there is a public debate around that topic you end up with two major groups, one saying that women work less or are less productive because of XYZ, the other saying something close to "it's…

Which data are the fools ignoring, more exactly?

1) The average income for every individual in society?

2) The average income for every working individual?

3) The average income for every full time individual?

4) The average income normalized to work hours and work position?

5) the average income normalized to work hours, work position and experience?

6) the average income normalized to work hours, work position, experience, city of occupation?

7) the average income normalized to work hours, work position, experience, city of occupation, volunteering for less desirable works like overtime and night work?

8) all the above with additional quasi-legal normalization for aspects that may effect productivity, like number of sick days?

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#54

Post by faceplanted »

mcv wrote: post #43
marvin wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is happening at my place right now. Leadership has dictated that priority is now to even out gender imbalances rather than giving raises. Since the women in our company are heavily skewed towards lower-paying roles (QA, customer support), this means the company will avoid giving raises to the roles that actually are in demand and have strong salary growth elsewhere. Needless to say, those of us with options have…

I don't get this kind of destructive attitude. Surely the sensible thing to do when you want more equality and women are skewed towards lower paying jobs, is to hire more women in higher paying jobs? I'm all for paying people in lower-end jobs better, mind you, but using this as an excuse to hurt salary growth seems like it's intended to discredit the whole idea of gender equality. Well, unless the people involved ar…

> When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure

Very simply, the measure of women being paid less is useful on wide scale in demonstrating women's position in society, but it doesn't go into the complexities of the issue, so aiming to get your company more equal on that measure can mean so many things as to make it a useless target unless you understand the situation.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#55

Post by Firadeoclus »

knowThySelfx wrote: post #29

Shouldn't remuneration depend on the amount of work done? Gender issue shouldn't come into it.

Should the price of something depend on the amount of work done? On how much the buyer values it? Or on the amount the buyer has to offer to outbid others?

Does an employer just pay for work done, or possibly also for availability, potential, loyalty, goodwill?

Edit: That said, I absolutely agree that gender isn't something that should figure in those considerations. At best it's a poor proxy for much more specific differences between individuals.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#56

Post by ganzuul »

coldtea wrote: post #39
ganzuul wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy in that scenario. Equal wages is supposed to result in improved production... isn't it?

> Equal wages is supposed to result in improved production... isn't it? No, why would they?

Attracts better qualified personnel? More motivation? Some macroeconomic optimization where price and value mismatch results in inflation?

I don't know! \o/ Just what my intuition says.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#57

Post by mcv »

faceplanted wrote: post #54
mcv wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this kind of destructive attitude. Surely the sensible thing to do when you want more equality and women are skewed towards lower paying jobs, is to hire more women in higher paying jobs? I'm all for paying people in lower-end jobs better, mind you, but using this as an excuse to hurt salary growth seems like it's intended to discredit the whole idea of gender equality. Well, unless the people involved ar…

> When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure Very simply, the measure of women being paid less is useful on wide scale in demonstrating women's position in society, but it doesn't go into the complexities of the issue, so aiming to get your company more equal on that measure can mean so many things as to make it a useless target unless you understand the situation.

Excellent point. Reminds me of the Bechdel Test, a simple test to show how poorly women are treated in movies. To pass the test, the movie has to have at least two named women talking to each other about something other than a man. It should be trivial to pass, yet a surprising number of movies don't.

But that test doesn't mean that movies that pass the test are better or more feminist than movies that don't. Terribly sexist/misogynist movies can still easy pass it, whereas Gravity, a movie starring only Sandra Bullock for most of its duration, doesn't pass it because there's nobody else in the movie to talk to.

Similarly, the point of calling attention to the gender wage gap should be to pay women better and give them better access to higher paying jobs, not to deny men raises.

Equality should lift people up, not push them down.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#58

Post by lm28469 »

raducu wrote: post #52
lm28469 wrote: post #44

The problem of gender pay gap is a really hard one to tackle. You have to be a fool to pretend there is no issue, but the number of causes is incredible at the gender, education, industry, company and individual levels. Every time there is a public debate around that topic you end up with two major groups, one saying that women work less or are less productive because of XYZ, the other saying something close to "it's…

How about option 3: men choose to work on jobs that pay more but are more stressful while women chose to work on more social jobs that pay less and value other things more than just pay.

You'll have to be a bit more precise because right now it's hard to tell if you're trolling or trying to make a point. In any case, the pay gap isn't a thing that can be addressed with a single sentence such as yours.

It's a really simplistic point of view to say social jobs are valued other than with a salary. And I'm fairly certain that social workers, teachers and nurses get their share of stress.

If anything the "men do manly jobs and women do social jobs" is another symptom of the underlying causes. Sure you can say "that's the way it is" and move on, but if you want to take part in the debate you have to show a minimum of intellectual honesty.

Plus it doesn't work for people having the same position in the same company.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#59

Post by depthcharge »

lm28469 wrote: post #44

The problem of gender pay gap is a really hard one to tackle. You have to be a fool to pretend there is no issue, but the number of causes is incredible at the gender, education, industry, company and individual levels. Every time there is a public debate around that topic you end up with two major groups, one saying that women work less or are less productive because of XYZ, the other saying something close to "it's…

Since gender only seems to play a very minor role in wage differences between men and women, as opposed to say, willingness to work full-time/overtime, personality, and job choice, it is not at all clear that the 'gender' pay gap is a problem that needs tackling.

I believe systems that strive for equality of outcome and put group identity above individual qualities will only create more injustices, not fewer. If the current situation we have is mostly the result of men and women using their freedom to make different choices in life (on average), then forcing different outcomes with these systems seems like an even worse idea.

The assumption that equal work deserves equal pay is fine. But who decides what equal work is? There are a lot of factors that can make one employee more valuable than another employee in the same role, and therefore it only seems reasonable that companies get the freedom to reward those employees differently. All these subtle factors will not show up in the data, and so I do not believe it will help with anything, except for making people see problems where none exist.

Re: Gender pay gap shrinks when companies disclose wages

#60

Post by lm28469 »

belorn wrote: post #53
lm28469 wrote: post #44

The problem of gender pay gap is a really hard one to tackle. You have to be a fool to pretend there is no issue, but the number of causes is incredible at the gender, education, industry, company and individual levels. Every time there is a public debate around that topic you end up with two major groups, one saying that women work less or are less productive because of XYZ, the other saying something close to "it's…

Which data are the fools ignoring, more exactly? 1) The average income for every individual in society? 2) The average income for every working individual? 3) The average income for every full time individual? 4) The average income normalized to work hours and work position? 5) the average income normalized to work hours, work position and experience? 6) the average income normalized to work hours, work position, exp…

The first one that make them feel good about the situation.

You can rationalise a lot of things by interpreting statistical analysis to support your point of view, you just have to cover it with a "duh that's the real _facts_" and move on.

Post reply on HN