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The pros and cons of placebo buttons

economist.com

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Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#71

Post by NPMaxwell »

Balero wrote: post #20
jkingsbery wrote: post #10

I work in New York, but I go to Seattle periodically because that's where my company's headquarters is. How people treat the buttons is wildly different between those two cities. I hardly ever see anyone press the cross button in NY, since the convention is to wait for there to be no cars and then cross (and not bother with the button). In Seattle, I've seen people wait patiently at a cross walk even though there's n…

I believe jaywalking is illegal, and enforced in Seattle. When I'm in the UK I will normally not press the pedestrian button (unless its the type of pedestrian only crossing which only activate with the button, not on traffic lights on a junction) . But when I'm in the US, or a different country with jaywalking laws, I will stick to the rules much more rigidly. I also really enjoy the first time crossing a road when…

As far as I can tell, in Seattle, jaywalking is enforced with $60 fines for about a month every five years or so. Between fining episodes, rumors maintain obedience.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#72

Post by rootusrootus »

oarsinsync wrote: post #60
JansjoFromIkea wrote: post #14

I notice a lot in London that there are a bunch of pedestrian lights in areas witha steady flow of traffic that will only work if the button has been pressed, yet every single day I see people, often the same people, stand there until someone else presses the button. Part of me wonders if there's almost an aspect of not wanting to cause offense involved. If you're the person who presses the button, you're responsible…

Not a Londoner, but I have zero regard for the interests and sensibilities of drivers. As a pedestrian, cyclist and driver, I feel safe in saying that the worst road users generally are (in order) drivers, cyclists and pedestrians. Amusingly, that also goes in the same order of 'who is more likely to kill you if they run into you', which may play a part. Eitherway, I always press the button. It doesn't matter if it's…

When I'm driving, it's the pedestrians that are idiots. When I'm walking, it's the drivers. Something I've always noted with amusement, how quickly the perspective changes. Like going through a Costco parking lot to find a spot, then parking and walking into the store.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#73

Post by zimablue »

claudiawerner wrote: post #69
zimablue wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole piece, and to be honest most of the comments here come from such a dark, authoritarian, arrogant perspective. "lying to the plebs modifies their behavior very slightly in a good way or is it in a bad way?" It's irrelevant, treat your fellow humans with some modicum of respect and dignity. Terry Pratchett's first rule of morality "don't treat people as if they're objects". Anyone caught casually deceiving p…

How is this relevant to this century? The concept of the Noble Lie has been around at least since Plato. Lying to someone isn't treating them as an object, it's actually confirming their subjectivity.

Lying to someone for their benefit is treating them as an object because you're not respecting their right to honesty or dignity, you're just treating them as an object that might or might not get run over and deceptive technology as just another input. You're optimizing them without their consent like they're some code you're trying to speed up. In the same way that PUAs is objectifying women because you're not respecting them as sentient humans with a right to honesty, you're treating your interactions with them as arbitrary code to be optimized.

re this century, maybe this has always been the attitude but I think you see it in "nudge" ideas which came about within the last 20 years. Govt/Corp application of applied behavioural psychology combined with (at least the UK and I think Europe) an acceptance of a nanny state to a degree that would have been unthinkable previously.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#74

Post by NPMaxwell »

Pros: You save money & reduce jaywalking. Cons: you spread germs and further erode trust and respect for government. The saved money and jaywalking compliance are Pyrrhic victories as citizens sass officers and vote for tax-cutting politicians.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#75

Post by rootusrootus »

EugeneOZ wrote: post #29

So it means sometimes cars should stop even when there is no pedestrian trying to cross the road? I thought initially these buttons were made to improve road traffic.

In the article they point out that the switches have been removed/deactivated on intersections where there is no benefit. In other words, there is nearly always a pedestrian waiting at that point in the cycle. Some intersections that don't see that same pattern continue to have a working button.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#76

Post by CM30 »

majewsky wrote: post #26
skaomatic wrote: post #22

This reminds me of an elevator's "Door Close" button. Manufacturers still include them for the peace of mind of passengers, despite computerized systems and many area laws (in the US, the ADA has language regarding door-open timespan for wheelchair access). EDIT: Thanks to a_c_s for pointing out that the button can work when the elevator is in emergency/service mode. More fun information on elevators, crosswalk and o…

In my office (in Germany), when the elevator door opens and I hold the "close door" button, it immediately starts closing as soon as it's finished opening. So at least that one is definitely not a placebo.

Same here in the UK. Both the close and open buttons work immediately after being pressed in my office, so they're clearly not placebos.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#77

Post by claudiawerner »

zimablue wrote: post #73
claudiawerner wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this relevant to this century? The concept of the Noble Lie has been around at least since Plato. Lying to someone isn't treating them as an object, it's actually confirming their subjectivity.

Lying to someone for their benefit is treating them as an object because you're not respecting their right to honesty or dignity, you're just treating them as an object that might or might not get run over and deceptive technology as just another input. You're optimizing them without their consent like they're some code you're trying to speed up. In the same way that PUAs is objectifying women because you're not resp…

Isn't the whole market based on things like this? The way supermarkets are organised, how advertising works at all, the government applying import tarrifs to dissuade you from buying from abroad, etc.

I don't think there's anything wrong with incentivizing the behaviour you want to see. In the end, every modern corporation does the exact same thing as what you claim nanny states do: try to make your desire align with theirs, and making it hard to resist by exploiting superego affinity (e.g your boss presents herself as your friend so you feel bad disobeying or refusing to work overtime).

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#78

Post by cannonedhamster »

GeordiePowers wrote: post #57

In Toronto, most of the buttons have long done nothing to control the light cycle, and only trigger the audio crossing indicator. Lately they've been replacing the signs signs on these, with each now saying "Button for audible signal only". Good way to re-purpose the existing hardware. See here for a comparison of old vs. new https://i.imgur.com/a0FXI5c.png

Welp, that's a few hours I'm never getting back from that rabbit hole. I really should have seen the Admiral shouting about it being a trap.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#79

Post by noobiemcfoob »

yholio wrote: post #47
shereadsthenews wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be better to just build smaller intersections that do not need millions of dollars worth of signals and cameras and ML inference rigs.

The cost of smart trafic lights is peanuts compared to the costs of reconfiguring and rebuilding a major intersection.

Your comment is based on no data at all and just a handful of assumptions that are most certainly far from true.

Re: The pros and cons of placebo buttons

#80

Post by test1235 »

ddeokbokki wrote: post #16
JansjoFromIkea wrote: post #14

I notice a lot in London that there are a bunch of pedestrian lights in areas witha steady flow of traffic that will only work if the button has been pressed, yet every single day I see people, often the same people, stand there until someone else presses the button. Part of me wonders if there's almost an aspect of not wanting to cause offense involved. If you're the person who presses the button, you're responsible…

Londoner here - I personally don't press the button if it's only me and the road is not busy since the time I would save would be lost over all the people I would make stop just for me. I've seen many people not press the buttons thinking it's just there as a placebo, it's mostly tourists though as it's common knowledge amongst Londoners that the button signals the traffic operating system that a pedestrian would lik…

kinda makes me think of the buttons on certain tube train doors which do nothing
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