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Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

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Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#71

Post by stinos »

trgn wrote: post #4

I planted milkweed in my front yard. These plants don't come cheap, between 10-20$ at the nursery for a young plant. I never was able to grow them from seed. Anyways, the plants did attract a few monarchs late summer/early fall. I counted two. I planted nine total. I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds".

I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds"

This is ... fascinating for me. For a number of reasons. Like, it's the exact opposite of what I do with my 'lawn' and makes me feel naive and like I've been living under a rock for not realizing there are places where people actually get warnings for this. Can you elaborate in what kind of place you live, which country? What are the reasons behind such code? Do you think whomever gave you that warning would listen to sientific arguments of why such code is pretty much the opposite of what would be appropriate when it comes to nature?

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#72

Post by erikpukinskis »

quotemstr wrote: post #69
eesmith wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an extremely complex system about we have shockingly little information in the grand scheme of things (30 years' worth of satellite data!), You should stop making that argument as it's too much like a well-refuted talking point that climate change denialists use. We have many different lines of evidence. “Global Warming in an Independent Record of the Past 130 Years“, for example, shows that the temperature ch…

The commentator to whom you're replying isn't denying climate change. He's proposing that the insect die off is happening on too short a time scale to attribute it entirely to climate change. That you're attacking him as if he were a climate denier is an example of the sort of behavior that creates climate deniers.

The intellectual hostage taking you’re doing is a sad trend I have seen more and more of lately. “This horrible feminist said bad things and FORCED me to become a sexist” kind of thing.

I don’t buy it. If one idiot on one side of a debate like that causes you to pick the opposite side, it’s because that’s the side you wanted to pick. There are plenty of idiots on either side to support whatever choice you want to make.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#73

Post by sfvisser »

eksemplar wrote: post #62
cryptonector wrote: post #7

This seems like part of the insect apocalypse story, and bee colony collapse disorder. All probably caused by overuse of insecticides. Note that if we don't find a way to correct this, it can be catastrophic on a timescale that makes the most alarmist climate change predictions seem like nothing. There must be some percentage of normal insect population density below which population of frogs and birds and what not w…

I don’t think the insect apocalypse is getting its attention stolen by climate change. I just don’t think enough people care. I mean, look at France. They are having violent riots because the gas prices were increased to fight climate change. I know that it’s easy for me, a relatively wealthy Scandinavian, to not worry about gas prices, but even if these people are struggling to make ends meet, they are right now, ac…

I think the people in France are acting very rational here. The artifical increase in gas prices directly hits their state of being right now and that of their kids. There is no uncertainty about that.

Global warning may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario. Why do they, who are already poor, need to pay the price right now?

I think most people rather want to be not poor in a world with global warning than poor in one without. I think I would.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#74

Post by erikpukinskis »

paulcole wrote: post #31
code_duck wrote: post #16

This is about in line with the intelligence with which I see people pursuing their interactions with the natural world around us. “A bare patch of dirt?? Let’s pay someone to spray it with Round-Up! On all of our 480 locations”

It’s no dumber than let’s pay someone to dig up rare rocks, ship them halfway around the world, turn them into iPhones, and ship them back. Then let’s do that nonstop for 10 years and counting.

It’s a little dumber

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#75

Post by code_duck »

sokoloff wrote: post #25
code_duck wrote: post #16

This is about in line with the intelligence with which I see people pursuing their interactions with the natural world around us. “A bare patch of dirt?? Let’s pay someone to spray it with Round-Up! On all of our 480 locations”

Though I agree with the end effect, the reality is closer to “let’s pay a landscape company to take care of this thing that isn’t our core business” (perfectly rational) and then the landscape company figures out the most cost-effective way to accomplish that. If that lens is correct, asking people to forego landscape services isn’t the right response, but rather to better educate and/or regulate landscaping services…

The choice of landscaping materials and chemicals is ultimately up to the customer. Ideally, people would be aware and care that a landscaping company is needlessly pouring poison all over their property.

The best plan would be to design spaces that don’t ‘need’ weedkiller or leaf blowing.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#76

Post by code_duck »

paulcole wrote: post #31
code_duck wrote: post #16

This is about in line with the intelligence with which I see people pursuing their interactions with the natural world around us. “A bare patch of dirt?? Let’s pay someone to spray it with Round-Up! On all of our 480 locations”

It’s no dumber than let’s pay someone to dig up rare rocks, ship them halfway around the world, turn them into iPhones, and ship them back. Then let’s do that nonstop for 10 years and counting.

Killing weeds with poison serves only a questionable aesthetic purpose.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#77

Post by zhte415 »

trgn wrote: post #4

I planted milkweed in my front yard. These plants don't come cheap, between 10-20$ at the nursery for a young plant. I never was able to grow them from seed. Anyways, the plants did attract a few monarchs late summer/early fall. I counted two. I planted nine total. I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard and having overgrown "landscape weeds".

> I got a code violation warning last month for not mowing my front yard

That sucks. Why do such restrictions exist? My whole front yard is ivy and bushes. There's no mowing that, and it looks very pleasant (and the frogs like it, too).

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#78

Post by smhost »

sfvisser wrote: post #73
eksemplar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the insect apocalypse is getting its attention stolen by climate change. I just don’t think enough people care. I mean, look at France. They are having violent riots because the gas prices were increased to fight climate change. I know that it’s easy for me, a relatively wealthy Scandinavian, to not worry about gas prices, but even if these people are struggling to make ends meet, they are right now, ac…

I think the people in France are acting very rational here. The artifical increase in gas prices directly hits their state of being right now and that of their kids. There is no uncertainty about that. Global warning may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario. Why do they, who are already poor, need to pay the price right now? I think most people rather want to be not poor in a world with global warning…

agreed. 100 companies are responsible for 70% of global emissions, and you're punishing the people? come on, that's not right.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#79

Post by eesmith »

quotemstr wrote: post #69
eesmith wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's an extremely complex system about we have shockingly little information in the grand scheme of things (30 years' worth of satellite data!), You should stop making that argument as it's too much like a well-refuted talking point that climate change denialists use. We have many different lines of evidence. “Global Warming in an Independent Record of the Past 130 Years“, for example, shows that the temperature ch…

The commentator to whom you're replying isn't denying climate change. He's proposing that the insect die off is happening on too short a time scale to attribute it entirely to climate change. That you're attacking him as if he were a climate denier is an example of the sort of behavior that creates climate deniers.

I was specially referring to the comments the g'parent poster made concerning climate, in a paragraph starting "As to climate".

It happens that the statements made are not only incorrect, but aligned with common talking points which are predominantly made by climate change denialists.

But you'll note that I carefully did not say that the poster was a CCD. I said the arguments were those used by CCD and which have been well-demonstrated to be invalid, so the poster needs to use better arguments to be convincing.

Re: Monarch butterfly populations in U.S. west are down an order of magnitude

#80

Post by elorant »

sfvisser wrote: post #73
eksemplar wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the insect apocalypse is getting its attention stolen by climate change. I just don’t think enough people care. I mean, look at France. They are having violent riots because the gas prices were increased to fight climate change. I know that it’s easy for me, a relatively wealthy Scandinavian, to not worry about gas prices, but even if these people are struggling to make ends meet, they are right now, ac…

I think the people in France are acting very rational here. The artifical increase in gas prices directly hits their state of being right now and that of their kids. There is no uncertainty about that. Global warning may or may not make life shitty in some future scenario. Why do they, who are already poor, need to pay the price right now? I think most people rather want to be not poor in a world with global warning…

Your dichotomy is false. In a world with global warming there would be no humans. It's an extinction level event and few of us seem to understand it.
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