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Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

theguardian.com

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Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#71

Post by briandear »

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #50

>But he maintained the policy was justified to discourage abuse – a point echoed by his former deputy, Mike Tolbert, who said it was the only way to prevent the shelter from being used as a “travel agency”. Why not simply restrict the free travel ticket a second time? Instead of the basic necessities like food and shelter? Writing that out makes even less sense once you think it through, however. If the goal of the c…

So taxpayers just keep paying for tickets until the person figures things out? If they know it’s a one way ticket and returning could result in an arrest for vagrancy, that seems to be a pretty strong incentive to stay away. The Key West man in the story admitted that he didn’t think they were serious. Well, they were.

I am not arguing other points of the story, only saying that as a taxpayer, unlimited free bus tickets to anywhere doesn’t sound like a fair deal for the people who pay taxes.

Homelessness is a tragedy for some and a lifestyle for others, that’s just a fact. Being homeless doesn’t somehow make you free of accountability for your actions: you sign an agreement, that should mean something.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#72

Post by Ibethewalrus »

staticautomatic wrote: post #20
joeblau wrote: post #14

I lived in San Francisco from 2011 - 2016 then moved to Pittsburgh, PA for a job opportunity. This past August, I went back to SF for a team building activity and I was blown away by how many fewer homeless people there were on the streets (excluding Tenderloin). When I lived in SF, there were blocks that I would place money on being a homeless person there, and it seemed like most of them were relocated. Tons of fam…

They seem to just be relocating to other parts of the city as formerly homeless-heavy areas like parts of SOMA and the mission "gentrify." I walk through the loin twice a day on my way to my office on market st near the post-apocalyptic parts of SOMA and see a higher concentration of homeless in those areas than I used to. Perhaps you're revisiting the parts they've left or my un-scientific observations are wrong.

Ahh the Loin...

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#73

Post by briandear »

jakelarkin wrote: post #16

this is the Nash Equilibrium type problem that exists with US federalism and extreme poverty. Cities just ship people around hoping to reduce their share of cost, while the homeless just become more physically sick or addicted, and mentally traumatized, so they become more costly to care for in aggregate over a lifetime. Everyone is worse off. It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on th…

With the hundreds of millions SF spends on the homeless, it could be fair to say that a large number of homeless don’t want “care” or “re-housing.” The city spends more and more and it doesn’t make a dent in the numbers. An objective observer might suggest that the more you subsidize something, the more of it you get. Compared to most places, it’s easier to be homeless in San Francisco, which could create a disincentive for the homeless to care about getting off the street.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#74

Post by raphlinus »

conanbatt wrote: post #67
michaelchisari wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness. Anybody with a drug problem should be able to walk into a hospital, say "I'm addicted to X" and get into treatment immediately, free of charge. Anybody with a mental illness should be able to walk into a hospital, say "I can't take care of myself because X keeps happening in my brain" and get into tr…

> free of charge. I think you should understand what this really means. Are you willing to pay 10, 15% extra of your income to sustain 10~25k a month bills for mentally ill people?

Totally. If it means they live an actually good life rather than a form of hell, I would consider it a very good deal. (Of course, things get a lot dicier when there are "treatment programs" optimized for siphoning money as opposed to helping people, a criticism that can be leveled against large swathes of the drug treatment industry. I would of course not feel good about 10-15% of my income lining their pockets)

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#75

Post by briandear »

michaelchisari wrote: post #47
PhantomGremlin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on their feet as quickly as possible with focused care & rapid re-housing. I think everyone can agree that it would greatly benefit society to get "people back on their feet". But how? There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness. In many places, The Rent Is Too Damn High. IMO…

There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness. Anybody with a drug problem should be able to walk into a hospital, say "I'm addicted to X" and get into treatment immediately, free of charge. Anybody with a mental illness should be able to walk into a hospital, say "I can't take care of myself because X keeps happening in my brain" and get into tr…

There are exactly those programs in San Francisco, but, unless you’ve ever dealt with the extremely mentally ill, you would know that they have to ask for the help. 5150s are temporary, so unless the person actually asks for help, there isn’t anything that can be done under current law.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#76

Post by briandear »

tjr225 wrote: post #69
Ericson2314 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes

Same here. I would rather that the disproportionately rich pay for it, however.

You would rather someone else pay for your beliefs? The disproportionately rich already pay a disproportionate share of taxes. The top 1% earn 19% of the income but pay 35% of the taxes in the US. I’m not sure that’s fair. Rich people also create the jobs: if they pay more, they have less incentive to invest more which means fewer businesses being funded and fewer jobs.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#77

Post by briandear »

jorblumesea wrote: post #42

The US lacks a true mental healthcare system, and not even a healthcare system available to the poor. Not a surprise that cities just move the problem around, what can they do? It's a national problem with zero national coordination or resources.

That isn’t true at all. Just a quick google search reveals a plethora of indigent care along with Medicaid as well as faith-based organizations. We should be more outraged at the VA system.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#78

Post by darawk »

adventured wrote: post #65
darawk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With unemployment this low there are plenty of entry level jobs people can get into in every city in the country. I live in Seattle and I see people out begging to give people entry level/beginner jobs by the light rail stations and all around the city, but homelessness is still on the rise. If that were actually true, then there wouldn't be a homeless problem. The unemployment rate doesn't count these people. The…

> The unemployment rate only counts people who are 'actively looking' for a new job. People who aren't looking at all don't show up in the statistics. That's entirely incorrect. We track all of these layers in fact. We have the labor force participation rate, which is available further separated out into groups, such as by age or race. We track the employment to population ratio. We have the U3, U5, U6 unemployment s…

> That's entirely incorrect. We track all of these layers in fact.

No....it is entirely correct. The unemployment rate that was quoted was exactly as I described. I didn't say the other statistics weren't tracked, I said the statistic quoted above, and the thing commonly referred to as "the unemployment rate" does not count it.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#79

Post by darawk »

hcs wrote: post #66
darawk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The city that they reside in is effectively denying them care. The tickets are an excuse to push them out of the city so that they don't actually have to give them proper care. If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there? What? How is giving them a free ticket pushing them anywhere? They're not being forced to take it. > Th…

An example from the article: > He was told the family was ineligible for services because they had housing options elsewhere, notably in Puerto Rico with his partner’s mother. To officials in New York, steering the family into accommodation instead of the city homeless system was the most sensible option. Ortiz’s decision to take the airline ticket was voluntary, but he did not feel he had much choice given the alter…

That is an entirely unrelated issue to the bus tickets.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#80

Post by conanbatt »

raphlinus wrote: post #74
conanbatt wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> free of charge. I think you should understand what this really means. Are you willing to pay 10, 15% extra of your income to sustain 10~25k a month bills for mentally ill people?

Totally. If it means they live an actually good life rather than a form of hell, I would consider it a very good deal. (Of course, things get a lot dicier when there are "treatment programs" optimized for siphoning money as opposed to helping people, a criticism that can be leveled against large swathes of the drug treatment industry. I would of course not feel good about 10-15% of my income lining their pockets)

Well, you can start by donating that to Housing First in SF:

https://www.homefirstscc.org

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