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Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

theguardian.com

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Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#41

Post by SolaceQuantum »

PhantomGremlin wrote: post #34
jakelarkin wrote: post #16

this is the Nash Equilibrium type problem that exists with US federalism and extreme poverty. Cities just ship people around hoping to reduce their share of cost, while the homeless just become more physically sick or addicted, and mentally traumatized, so they become more costly to care for in aggregate over a lifetime. Everyone is worse off. It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on th…

It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on their feet as quickly as possible with focused care & rapid re-housing. I think everyone can agree that it would greatly benefit society to get "people back on their feet". But how? There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness. In many places, The Rent Is Too Damn High. IMO…

From what I understand there have been several successful pilot projects that are variously shut down or are considered inappropriate for other cities (politically unpopular). Utah just straight up housed people to great success. NYC has a massive homeless population but they also put a ton of money into housing their homeless- also to fairly decent success. For drug addiction, there have been successful needle providing clinics in Canada and America currently has methodone clinics to great success. There are various police programs just for connecting homeless people to resources to get clean and start working, and otherwise providing them what they need to survive until they’re ready, and we know these have had success also. None of them are politically popular and there’s a lot of opposition to implementing any of them.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#42

Post by jorblumesea »

The US lacks a true mental healthcare system, and not even a healthcare system available to the poor. Not a surprise that cities just move the problem around, what can they do? It's a national problem with zero national coordination or resources.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#43

Post by UncleEntity »

fzeroracer wrote: post #40
darawk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is denying them care. Their choices are being strictly expanded here, not restricted. You think they would be better off if they did not have the option of these tickets?

To say that they're not being denied care is objectively wrong. Don't be disingenuous. The city that they reside in is effectively denying them care. The tickets are an excuse to push them out of the city so that they don't actually have to give them proper care. If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there? This is EXACTLY wh…

> If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there?

Well, one reason from TFA is so they can go back to where they have a friends/family support network. People actually do this on their own, parents get their kid a ticket on the Greyhound so they don't end up on/get off the streets. Happens a lot.

Given a choice between staying homeless where you happen to be or going somewhere where you have a fighting chance people seem to be going with the latter.

> They were given bus tickets and advised to seek health care elsewhere and were sued because of this program.

One alleged abusive program and this means they all share the same motivation?

Prisons do the exact same thing BTW.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#44

Post by darawk »

fzeroracer wrote: post #40
darawk wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is denying them care. Their choices are being strictly expanded here, not restricted. You think they would be better off if they did not have the option of these tickets?

To say that they're not being denied care is objectively wrong. Don't be disingenuous. The city that they reside in is effectively denying them care. The tickets are an excuse to push them out of the city so that they don't actually have to give them proper care. If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there? This is EXACTLY wh…

> The city that they reside in is effectively denying them care. The tickets are an excuse to push them out of the city so that they don't actually have to give them proper care. If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there?

What? How is giving them a free ticket pushing them anywhere? They're not being forced to take it.

> This is EXACTLY what happened when Nevada gave discharged patients from a mental health hospital one-way bus tickets out of town. They were given bus tickets and advised to seek health care elsewhere and were sued because of this program. So let's not ignore the fact that this actually occurs.

It is not even close to that. That was people being put onto these buses after being kicked out of hospitals. These are people who have already been living homelessly in the city, and the city saying "here, IF YOU WANT THIS, you can have a free ticket wherever you need to go".

This is a strict expansion of their autonomy, to paint it any other way is ludicrous.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#45

Post by fzeroracer »

darawk wrote: post #44
fzeroracer wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To say that they're not being denied care is objectively wrong. Don't be disingenuous. The city that they reside in is effectively denying them care. The tickets are an excuse to push them out of the city so that they don't actually have to give them proper care. If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there? This is EXACTLY wh…

> The city that they reside in is effectively denying them care. The tickets are an excuse to push them out of the city so that they don't actually have to give them proper care. If they weren't being denied care for whatever reasons, then there wouldn't be a reason to bus them out to other cities, now would there? What? How is giving them a free ticket pushing them anywhere? They're not being forced to take it. > Th…

No, let's get one thing straight here. These situations occur when we encourage the movement of homeless or mentally ill populations between states because they don't want to bother fixing the core problem.

As for the people in the Nevada case they were offered a choice by the hospital: They could be discharged early if they took a bus ticket to another state, and could leave even earlier if they had family/friends there. These were people given a choice, something that you mention as being incredibly important. Their autonomy was increased, was it not? They were not forced into taking the ticket.

Of course they were coerced, naturally. That's why I think your argument about choice ends up being complete bunk, because often there isn't a real 'choice' for many of these homeless people. For people who may have trouble making a well-informed choice due to poverty or mental illness or any other reason, to act like they have a full choice in the matter is ignorance.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#47

Post by michaelchisari »

PhantomGremlin wrote: post #34
jakelarkin wrote: post #16

this is the Nash Equilibrium type problem that exists with US federalism and extreme poverty. Cities just ship people around hoping to reduce their share of cost, while the homeless just become more physically sick or addicted, and mentally traumatized, so they become more costly to care for in aggregate over a lifetime. Everyone is worse off. It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on th…

It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on their feet as quickly as possible with focused care & rapid re-housing. I think everyone can agree that it would greatly benefit society to get "people back on their feet". But how? There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness. In many places, The Rent Is Too Damn High. IMO…

There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness.

Anybody with a drug problem should be able to walk into a hospital, say "I'm addicted to X" and get into treatment immediately, free of charge.

Anybody with a mental illness should be able to walk into a hospital, say "I can't take care of myself because X keeps happening in my brain" and get into treatment immediately, free of charge.

If you've ever tried to help someone get clean or get mental health inpatient care in the U.S., you can completely understand how people end up on the streets who could otherwise be productive members of society.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#48

Post by rectang »

PhantomGremlin wrote: post #34
jakelarkin wrote: post #16

this is the Nash Equilibrium type problem that exists with US federalism and extreme poverty. Cities just ship people around hoping to reduce their share of cost, while the homeless just become more physically sick or addicted, and mentally traumatized, so they become more costly to care for in aggregate over a lifetime. Everyone is worse off. It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on th…

It would be so much simpler, cheaper if society just got people back on their feet as quickly as possible with focused care & rapid re-housing. I think everyone can agree that it would greatly benefit society to get "people back on their feet". But how? There's a virtually unlimited stream of drugs coming into this country. There are many people who have mental illness. In many places, The Rent Is Too Damn High. IMO…

The intractable problem is that helping the homeless is seen as moral hazard by a large segment of the American populace. Our programs are incoherent because some want to provide assistance and others to withhold it.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#49

Post by michaelchisari »

taurath wrote: post #19
prolikewh0a wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With unemployment this low there are plenty of entry level jobs people can get into in every city in the country. I live in Seattle and I see people out begging to give people entry level/beginner jobs by the light rail stations and all around the city, but homelessness is still on the rise. Bussing them elsewhere doesn't help when they still don't have a home, a bathroom/shower, clean clothes, food, etc. Bussing the…

Having a home is frequently a prerequisite to be able to A: show up to work on time B: be groomed C: establish a pattern of living It’s hard to go to work not knowing if your car will be towed. Granted, where people COULD afford to live isn’t the city centers, where the services are and where people congregate. And the suburbs don’t want them either. Pretty sad state of affairs - we need to provide a real safety net…

D: Get a job in the first place.

Putting a homeless shelter or no address at all on your work application is a great way to get it sent straight to the circular file.

Even living in public housing can be a job killer if the addresses are well known enough. People at Cabrini Green had to hope they had a relative that would allow them to use their address to apply for jobs with, and hope on top of that the public housing officials wouldn't find out about it.

Re: Bussed out: how America moves thousands of homeless people around the country

#50

Post by flyGuyOnTheSly »

>But he maintained the policy was justified to discourage abuse – a point echoed by his former deputy, Mike Tolbert, who said it was the only way to prevent the shelter from being used as a “travel agency”.

Why not simply restrict the free travel ticket a second time? Instead of the basic necessities like food and shelter?

Writing that out makes even less sense once you think it through, however.

If the goal of the city is to relieve itself of homeless people, they should offer as many free bus tickets out of town as homeless people can ask for... Even multiple tickets in a row... Becoming that dreaded "travel agency" that Mike Tolbert warns about.

Surely it would be less expensive to pay for a second free bus ticket than to pay two police officers to arrest the same person 3+ times in a row for sleeping on the beach... And eventually the person might find a city or town that caters to their needs better than their first destination might have and end up staying.

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