What can you do.
Parent was edited from “Let's see evidence of misconduct before rushing to judgment.”
It was reported. Penalty of differing opinion.
Google staff walk out over women's treatment
71–80 of 471 posts
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
The salient difference is that outages are measurable. In contrast, "harassment" is an extremely controversial subject that nobody agrees upon, for example, in some legislations, calling a person with XY chromosomes "him" rather than "her" is considered a hate crime, a dramatic change from labelling conventions of just a few years ago. Indeed what constitutes harassment is a major point of contention between differen…
> Indeed, what downsides are there for false harassment claims? Many people who get harassed opt to change teams, companies, or professions rather than actually pursue a formal complaint against their harasser. Perhaps they are mistaken (I don't think so), but they seem to believe that there are real downsides to filing even true harassment claims, to the extent that the aforementioned career upheavals seem easier.
> Perhaps they are mistaken, but they seem to believe that there are real downsides to filing even true harassment claims
Why can’t both be true?
For what you are implying to make any sense you have to assume some sort of equivalence:
1) Between the kind of woman who makes a false claim and the kind of woman who makes a true one.
AND
2) Between the kind of man who is guilty and the kind of man who is falsely accused.
I don’t think either of these two claims holds any water.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#73So the first demand is "A commitment to end pay and opportunity inequality" I'd like to see the actual data behind this constant inequality claim. I would be genuinely interested to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs. I've heard speculation that women don't argue for higher salaries as much as men, I've also heard that the data is never accurate because it doesn't…
> to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs. What if the pay is equal for like-for-like jobs, but for the higher paying jobs one sex is vastly underrepresented? Not saying it is, just that discrimination and bias often runs deeper than some simple comparison.
What if one gender has a higher variance than another gender? Just don't say that to Google or you may get fired.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
all harassment claims should be No, of course not. Symmetrically, the should also not automatically accepted as true. There should be an objective, measurable process. Given the cul-de-sac that organisations like Google have been strong-armed into, I think the obvious next step is (1) to record all work-time interaction of all employees and store them for a long time, e.g. at least 10 years. (2) Give a absolutely cle…
>No, of course not. Symmetrically, the should also not automatically accepted as true. This. I imagine most are absolutely true, but there are some that absolutely are not. I've personally been accused by rape, online, of someone in another state that I've never even been to. Fortunately, no one took the claim serious but I imagine there are many innocent people that have been wrongly accused for whatever reason. I a…
I imagine most are absolutely
true,
(1) There is simply no agreement currently on what counts as harassment.
(2) Anecdote: I've been involved in investigating a sexual harassment claim at a previous employer, at it was absolutely and categorically and provably false.
turning into McCarthyism.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Those two lines of logic don't go together. If in your opinion it's a big mistake to believe they're rational, you are saying they're not being rational. There's no neutrality there. You can assume that there is unknown information being acted upon. Unless there's proof otherwise that the protest is lying you infact can and should assume it's authenticity. Or at the least not be involved without clear knowledge.
> you infact can and should assume it's authenticity. Why should you?
Because you treat others as you expect to be treated, and respect your fellow human kind. We do this because if we have an issue we want to raise to everyone there will be people to help empower that.
Given that the individuals protesting are employees about their workplace there is information we may not know, and given the history of mega corps violating rights it would be unreasonable to automatically trust the company over the workers putting themselves out there.
If you have reason or evidence against, then by all means don't support the protest, but you should look at this from their perspective and at workers rights in general.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#76So the first demand is "A commitment to end pay and opportunity inequality" I'd like to see the actual data behind this constant inequality claim. I would be genuinely interested to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs. I've heard speculation that women don't argue for higher salaries as much as men, I've also heard that the data is never accurate because it doesn't…
UK Office for National Statistics publish good data for the UK. My impression (based on 2016 stats [0]) is that as most C-suiters are men, and they can get 100s or 1000s of times the money that ordinary employees get, that in the UK this likely accounts for most of the effect that's not accounted for by career breaks (childcare, for example). To reiterate, this is my _impression_ when looking at the data. Men who wor…
Men under 30 earn much less than women under 30. No one cares either.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Shouldn't employees have the right to collectively strike to get better conditions at work? There's a lot more at stake here than "drama for the company". Doesn't the employer have the right to fire them for any reason in any "at will job"?
I dont think that "at will" exists in all countries - e.g. in Europe I have been told by managers I've had in various employments that it is almost impossible to fire someone in Europe without either some serious misconduct (e.g. sexual harassment), or without first going through a lot of steps to try and not-fire the employee (e.g. performance improvement plans). I am not sure if that is true or not or if it applies…
That is true (no at will employment in at least most if not all of Europe, thankfully). And of course it applies to Google employees in the respective countries because it is the law.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#78So the first demand is "A commitment to end pay and opportunity inequality" I'd like to see the actual data behind this constant inequality claim. I would be genuinely interested to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs. I've heard speculation that women don't argue for higher salaries as much as men, I've also heard that the data is never accurate because it doesn't…
> I would be genuinely interested to see what kind of difference there is between the sexes when comparing like-for-like jobs.
There really aren't any differences. Just do a simple mental exercise.
Imagine if the gender gap is real. Male programmers demand $100K while female programmers demand $77K for the same exact quality of work. What would this mean? It would mean all tech companies would only hire females.
For comparison look at seasonal farm work. Imagine if migrant workers deman $7.70 per hour while citizens demand $10 per hour for the same quality of work. What do you think the composition of the labor foce on farms would be? I'd imagine it would be mostly migrants. Right?
If the wage gap truly existed, clever feminists would start companies exclusively composed of women and would be putting everyone out of business because they have a 23% profit margin built in.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#79All of their demands seem pretty reasonable. It looks like the big gripe is that basically there's no real process in place for situations of misconduct in the office. To draw an analogy, this would be like Google not having a process to investigate and resolve site outages - it would be unthinkable, so why aren't they treating their organisation with the same rigor they treat their website.
> this would be like Google not having a process to investigate and resolve site outages - it would be unthinkable, so why aren't they treating their organisation with the same rigor they treat their website.
Because, Google is a company that builds products. I am interested in their products and in the fact that their products work, not much in the behaviour of the people building them- given the fact that they are located in a supposedly civilized country anyway, where serious misconducts should be prosecuted by law. The internal squabbles and complaints of the company are of very little relevance for their users, as it should be.
Re: Google staff walk out over women's treatment
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do the eyewitness accounts of your female peers and friends not count as evidence?
No, if it's one person leveling an accusation and there is no corroborating evidence (either physical or more witnesses), it's not enough. Otherwise it would be within anyone's power to have people fired or put away for rape without evidence.
> either physical or more witnesses
This makes rape un-prosecutable.