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Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

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Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#71

Post by bambataa »

rhapsodic wrote: post #61
DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

> The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. It may be important for you, Dan, but it's not important for me. Please, don't try to impose any more "form…

Cool, how can I afford to buy a house in an area of roughly my choice and not work horrible hours? Oh wait I can’t do both. And you’d probably say that’s my choice to forgo living in a nice house in a nice area.

But of course, if houses cost 50% less and everyone worked 50% less I could afford the same house and work half as much, leaving more time to do what I want.

Suddenly it seems like the decisions we make have an impact on other people. So how can you choose your path without impacting on my path, and vice versa?

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#72

Post by mikepurvis »

abraham_lincoln wrote: post #54
ido wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In effect I'd say that it is an attitude more concerned with the spirit and less with the letter of the law (so, for instance, I don't think turning on the light is an issue, and putting money on the table for someone to take isn't actually adhering to the prohibition on commerce). That's something that generally rubs me the wrong way about a lot of things with orthodox jewish practices (especially the ultra orthodox…

And yet, they are the only ones observing the Sabbath.

But the whole point is that it depends on your approach. Jesus was very clearly in opposition to the religious elites of his day by choosing to walk, teach, and even perform physical healings on the Sabbath. The summation of the rationale for this is pretty clear: it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A9-...

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#73

Post by rgbrenner »

jeffdavis wrote: post #32
rgbrenner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't pretty much any historical text also historical evidence? No. People make up stories. Obviously. Harry potter isn't historical evidence of the magical abilities of past humans.

People can make up stories on the witness stand, too. Testimony is still evidence, it just that it needs to be weighed in context by a jury (along with all the other evidence). In the future, when humans just upload data directly to brains, and nobody remembers what a school is, then Harry Potter absolutely could be used as historical evidence that schools existed and that children went to them. The fantastical bit a…

If they don't know what a school is, how would they know that Harry Potter is accurate?

Sewers are real. Turtles are real. Is Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles real?

The other evidence for a school must be conclusive. Only from that evidence could you then say Harry Potter's schools were real. It's the other evidence that is evidence. Not harry potter.

Anything in Harry Potter not proven by something else, must be assumed to be fantasy.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#74

Post by neaden »

mikepurvis wrote: post #72
abraham_lincoln wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, they are the only ones observing the Sabbath.

But the whole point is that it depends on your approach. Jesus was very clearly in opposition to the religious elites of his day by choosing to walk, teach, and even perform physical healings on the Sabbath. The summation of the rationale for this is pretty clear: it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A9-...

Right. But Jesus wouldn't have wanted you to be driving for Uber on the Sabbath either.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#75

Post by qwerty456127 »

Sabbath is not enough. There is so much progress in automation yet it has been so long since the last time the standard work week length has been decreased. Why the heck is it considered a norm that all the people are supposed to spend almost all the time (that is left after sleeping, home maintenance and gym) at work?

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#76

Post by qwerty456127 »

eco wrote: post #53

Here in Utah it is very common for local businesses to be closed on the sabbath and there is strong cultural pressure among Mormons to not work or do anything that would cause someone to have to work on Sunday (e.g., shopping and going out to eat, though some take it even further by abstaining from things like online shopping or even watching television). I don't see us headed in that direction though. It's it's beco…

> some take it even further by abstaining from things like online shopping or even watching television

I used to believe Mormons don't have TVs at all and that felt admirable.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#77

Post by DowsingSpoon »

rhapsodic wrote: post #61
DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

> The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. It may be important for you, Dan, but it's not important for me. Please, don't try to impose any more "form…

Without some sort of pressure to maintain a standard like 40 hrs/wk, employee work hours become a race to the bottom. This pressure could take the form of a formal collective bargaining agreement. It could also take the form of a strong social norm. In either case, it doesn’t work unless a lot of people buy into the idea.

It would be a lot easier if it were much, much easier to negotiate work-life balance while negotiating compensation. Unfortunately, I’ve never found this to be practical. Management has certain expectations set by company social norms. Any employee found violating those norms is punished in one way or another.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#78

Post by canadaduane »

eco wrote: post #53

Here in Utah it is very common for local businesses to be closed on the sabbath and there is strong cultural pressure among Mormons to not work or do anything that would cause someone to have to work on Sunday (e.g., shopping and going out to eat, though some take it even further by abstaining from things like online shopping or even watching television). I don't see us headed in that direction though. It's it's beco…

I grew up Mormon as well and have since left. But I find a lot of value in traditions like this. We (post-Mormons) tongue-in-cheek call the Sabbath "Second Saturday," but I do think there's a loss that includes both the Sabbath as a communal good and the individual "day of rest" (except for lay member leaders who are exhausted at the end of a 10-hour meeting-filled Sabbath).

Another tradition I value is the monthly single-day fast. There are contemplative, compassionate, and health benefits to fasting.

But traditions don't require you to know all of the benefits before you start doing them--they just give you the program and ask/cajole you to get with it. IMO, a memeplex that comes with "arbitrary traditions bundled with turns-out-to-have-good-reasons traditions" is better than arriving in life with a zero vector for direction--i.e. no tradition at all.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#80

Post by mikepurvis »

neaden wrote: post #74
mikepurvis wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the whole point is that it depends on your approach. Jesus was very clearly in opposition to the religious elites of his day by choosing to walk, teach, and even perform physical healings on the Sabbath. The summation of the rationale for this is pretty clear: it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+12%3A9-...

Right. But Jesus wouldn't have wanted you to be driving for Uber on the Sabbath either.

I think all I'm saying is that there's a middle ground where you go screen/internet free, and avoid things like housework, shopping, planning, and meal preparation in favour of spending time with family, but don't sweat things like non-religious reading, turning lights on and off, and walking to the park.
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