Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#31

Post by natalyarostova » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

>where it's in everyone's immediate individual interest to work just a little bit longer, but the end result is that everyone has to work more for the same reward

If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is working more hours to buy more things really better than a culture where we work less and spend more time eating dinner with our families?", which I would agree with, but is more of a cultural comment than an economic comment.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#32

Post by jeffdavis » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #13

jeffdavis wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't pretty much any historical text also historical evidence? Maybe you mean archeological evidence, or corroberating historical evidence?

Isn't pretty much any historical text also historical evidence? No. People make up stories. Obviously. Harry potter isn't historical evidence of the magical abilities of past humans.

People can make up stories on the witness stand, too. Testimony is still evidence, it just that it needs to be weighed in context by a jury (along with all the other evidence).

In the future, when humans just upload data directly to brains, and nobody remembers what a school is, then Harry Potter absolutely could be used as historical evidence that schools existed and that children went to them. The fantastical bit about learning to be a wizard may be discarded by other evidence (or lack thereof).

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#33

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

natalyarostova wrote: post #31

DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

>where it's in everyone's immediate individual interest to work just a little bit longer, but the end result is that everyone has to work more for the same reward If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is working more hours to buy more things really better than a culture where we work less and spend more time eating dinner with our f…

Perhaps the social taboo needs to be against the continual enrichment of the ownership class with that additional value being created by everyone working more?

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#34

Post by dnomad » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

fenwick67 wrote: post #9

"The Sabbath’s radicalism should be no surprise given the fact that it originated among a community of former slaves" Just a reminder to readers, there is no historical evidence for the mass jewish enslavement by egyptians as described in the torah.

And of course the Sabbath did not actually originate with the Jews. The tradition goes back to at least the Bronze Age if not earlier.

If people are interested in a rigorous treatment of ancient economics and their surprising modern relevance consider they should really look into Hudson [1].

[1] https://michael-hudson.com/2018/08/and-forgive-them-their-de...

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#35

Post by gavman » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

As an Orthodox Jew who observes the Sabbath every week, while sometimes finishing up work and preparations beforehand can be stressful at times, there's no feeling like turning off all phones/laptops/etc Friday evening and leaving it all behind. There's a supreme serenity that comes with the knowledge of "I can't do anything about it, so there's no point in worrying". As soon as Sabbath starts I'm totally focused on the now -- I can't do anything to prepare for what comes after, and due to the restrictions of the day I've done all my preparations for Sabbath before it begins. There's a saying in Judaism that Sabbath is "me'ein olam haba", meaning "of the next world", and it rings true every week when I can't wait for it to begin and feel sadness when it ends and I have to return to the mundaneness of work and logistics and emails. It's just the right amount of a great thing.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#36

Post by craftyguy » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #24

As a student in Cambridge MA in the late 70s, very few stores were open on a Sunday. I often played rugby matches on Saturday and I remember having to often find a few hours in the afternoon free of classes when I could do various shopping. Just an anecdote but you don't have to go back to the truly distant past to find the vast majority of stores closed on Sunday.

Lots of (smaller) towns in Europe are still like this. It's very difficult to find stores open on Sunday, usually the only ones that are open are the large chain grocery stores.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#37

Post by emodendroket » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

> I do wish, though, that the article fully grappled with the issue of the 'shabbos goy.' It praises the virtues of having everyone able to participate in a time of separation from work, but then there's this practice where the conveniences of life are still indulged in by having an outsider labor for you.

I'd say the traditional Christian concept of the sabbath is looser and doesn't really require this kind of thing.

In effect I'd say that it is an attitude more concerned with the spirit and less with the letter of the law (so, for instance, I don't think turning on the light is an issue, and putting money on the table for someone to take isn't actually adhering to the prohibition on commerce).

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#38

Post by DanAndersen » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

natalyarostova wrote: post #31

DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

>where it's in everyone's immediate individual interest to work just a little bit longer, but the end result is that everyone has to work more for the same reward If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is working more hours to buy more things really better than a culture where we work less and spend more time eating dinner with our f…

[flagged]

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#39

Post by frgtpsswrdlame » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

natalyarostova wrote: post #31

DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

>where it's in everyone's immediate individual interest to work just a little bit longer, but the end result is that everyone has to work more for the same reward If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is working more hours to buy more things really better than a culture where we work less and spend more time eating dinner with our f…

>If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total.

If (in a simple example) everyone works 40 hour weeks but then they start working 40hrs + 10hrs of gig work, if you remain just a 40hr worker you will fall behind not just them, but also where you were previously. A pie growing does not mean your piece grows, in fact situations where your piece is shrinking faster than the pie grows are the exact motivation that can lead to tragedy of the commons.

I'd say this example is actually a perfect example of tragedy of the commons, to twist your comment a bit to fit the canonical example given in econ classes:

If everyone is fishing more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is fishing more really better than a culture where we fish less?", which I would agree with, but is more a cultural comment than an economic comment.

I hope that illustrates why it actually is more of an economic comment than a cultural one. Economics is more than just the rhetoric of doing positive-sum things.

Re: Let’s bring back the Sabbath as an act against ‘total work’

#40

Post by lukeschlather » Fri, Sep 14, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

natalyarostova wrote: post #31

DanAndersen wrote: post #16

The article raises good points about the need for formal societal taboos against constant work. The ideal (often violated, though) in our modern society of the "40-hour week" as a reasonable amount is one of them. Having regular times for contemplation and separation from the bustle of the world is important. The gig economy has dangers in it. There's a liberating aspect in that people "can choose their own hours," b…

>where it's in everyone's immediate individual interest to work just a little bit longer, but the end result is that everyone has to work more for the same reward If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total. So it's not zero-sum. You might then say "Yes, sure, but is working more hours to buy more things really better than a culture where we work less and spend more time eating dinner with our f…

> If everyone is working more, more value is being created in total.

That's often false. It's very easy to create negative value, and it becomes easier the less you rest. It's also hard to measure when additional work starts creating negative value, so you can easily end up in a downward spiral of productivity as people compete for not just illusory but counterproductive gains.