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Thank you, Ubuntu

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Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#71

Post by pronoiac »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #64
IgorPartola wrote: post #17

I keep try to evangelize the fact that things like apt are one of the biggest wins for the various UNIX-like OS's. In Windows world installing software takes both finding it and configuring the installer. On a Mac you have to at least find it. On Ubuntu/Debian/etc you just have to know the name (or you can search a central database). Also no more Java/Flash player/Acrobat Reader "needs to be updated" messages. You up…

The package manager concept is actually what I hate most about Linux systems and Ubuntu's strategy to not let you upgrade some packages without upgrading the OS itself is insane. Packages tend to thrust some completely idiosyncratic configuration scheme down my throat that is documented nowhere and that creates conflicts of its own. They don't just solve dependencies they encourage dependencies because they are suppo…

Ubuntu's strategy to not let you upgrade some packages without upgrading the OS itself is insane.

You can; it's called "pinning:" https://help.ubuntu.com/community/PinningHowto

If I want Python 2 and 3 on the same system I can't have a package manager tell me that's not supposed to be when I know full well that it's no problem.

Let me check; here on Jaunty I can separately install python2.4, python2.5, python2.6, python3.0, & python3.1.

I don't doubt that you've had problems with the package managers, but, um, I think you're doing it wrong.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#72

Post by metellus »

rbanffy wrote: post #35
nivertech wrote: post #30

Ubuntu is excellent, except: 1. Firefox and Chrome are very slow and freezing, when opening many tabs. 2. Flash plugin is crashing constantly 3. OpenOffice is very slow and freezing. Can't render properly MS Office documents.

> 1. Firefox and Chrome are very slow and freezing, when opening many tabs. > 2. Flash plugin is crashing constantly Try that without the flash plugin. > 3. OpenOffice is very slow and freezing. Can't render properly MS Office documents. I find it more likely that Office can't save its files according to whatever is the current Office file spec.

That may be the case, but I bet Office can handle those documents just fine. The non-techy user doesn't care why something doesn't work. They just care that it doesn't work.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#73

Post by eru »

spiffworks wrote: post #24
_b8r0 wrote: post #19

It's weird. I used to love Ubuntu, but after 8.04 I just stopped liking it. The little things niggled away at me. The bloat, the fear of upgrades breaking things (this is why my main home file server still runs 8.04, something I'm not happy about) if you have a slightly nonstandard install. I switched to Arch for my main home laptop and breathed new life into a PIII-850 with 128mb of RAM. Ubuntu would've killed it. I…

I run AwesomeWM on top of minimal Ubuntu install, and I enjoy the best of both worlds. I get access to the whole .deb racket while at the same time getting rid of all the bloat. But you're completely right about upgrades breaking things. Since Jaunty, I can't remember a single upgrade which didn't make me thank god for Dropbox.

XMonad also works fine.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#74

Post by rick_2047 »

gvb wrote: post #40
rick_2047 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am using the same computer which used to work with 7.04. How come something that was working in 7.04 suddenly break in 8.10?

You don't say what Intel graphics chip you have problems with, but your problem matches the GMA 500. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA#GMA_500_on_Linux "GMA 500 support on Linux is not optimal. The driver is developed by Tungsten Graphics, not by Intel, and the graphic core is not an Intel one, but is licensed from PowerVR. This has led to an uncertain mix of open and closed source 3d accelerated drivers, instab…

It is just the onboard graphics that used to come with intel boards. I used the i810 driver with it as far as I can remember.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#75

Post by mdwrigh2 »

mikeryan wrote: post #52
CrazedGeek wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...neither of which come with the normal versions (and, indeed, are quite a bit more expensive), so most people will never even touch them on their PCs.

OS X comes preinstalled with Apache. No need for OS X server.

Although there is something to be said for running the same software stack on your desktop as your server.

Though, I'll grant you, web development on OS X is really nice.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#76

Post by mdwrigh2 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #17

I keep try to evangelize the fact that things like apt are one of the biggest wins for the various UNIX-like OS's. In Windows world installing software takes both finding it and configuring the installer. On a Mac you have to at least find it. On Ubuntu/Debian/etc you just have to know the name (or you can search a central database). Also no more Java/Flash player/Acrobat Reader "needs to be updated" messages. You up…

OS X has a package manager, it just isn't installed by default. Checkout MacPorts or Homebrew.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#77

Post by IgorPartola »

mdwrigh2 wrote: post #76
IgorPartola wrote: post #17

I keep try to evangelize the fact that things like apt are one of the biggest wins for the various UNIX-like OS's. In Windows world installing software takes both finding it and configuring the installer. On a Mac you have to at least find it. On Ubuntu/Debian/etc you just have to know the name (or you can search a central database). Also no more Java/Flash player/Acrobat Reader "needs to be updated" messages. You up…

OS X has a package manager, it just isn't installed by default. Checkout MacPorts or Homebrew.

Yes, I am aware of these projects. They, however, don't have the advantages that things like apt have. For example you cannot use them to update your entire OS. Instead you must order DVD's from Apple, and then boot from them. Yes, installing certain software this way is easier, but it is not nearly as convenient as having the entire OS built around it.

On the other hand, existence of these projects indicates that Mac users are dissatisfied with how installing/updating/maintaining software is done in Mac OS X and are looking for something better.

Lastly, I don't necessarily think that apt is end-all be-all silver bullet answer to all questions. I just think that out of the available technologies today, OS's that are built around package management work better and are easier to use than anything else out there.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#78

Post by Gormo »

dkarl wrote: post #68
fauigerzigerk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The package manager concept is actually what I hate most about Linux systems and Ubuntu's strategy to not let you upgrade some packages without upgrading the OS itself is insane. Packages tend to thrust some completely idiosyncratic configuration scheme down my throat that is documented nowhere and that creates conflicts of its own. They don't just solve dependencies they encourage dependencies because they are suppo…

They don't just solve dependencies they encourage dependencies This is a good thing. Developers' attitude toward dependencies gets very lax when it's too much work to declare them or too much work for the user to satisfy them. Then you get into situations where you install a piece of software and 90% of the functionality is broken, because the developer was "considerate" enough not to "force" a bunch of dependencies…

How about statically-linked builds? Hard drives and memory are cheap compared to the annoyances of having to manage dependencies on the user's system.

Package management is a solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist in the first place.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#79

Post by IgorPartola »

swies wrote: post #69
IgorPartola wrote: post #17

I keep try to evangelize the fact that things like apt are one of the biggest wins for the various UNIX-like OS's. In Windows world installing software takes both finding it and configuring the installer. On a Mac you have to at least find it. On Ubuntu/Debian/etc you just have to know the name (or you can search a central database). Also no more Java/Flash player/Acrobat Reader "needs to be updated" messages. You up…

http://ninite.com is getting close to apt-get for Windows. We're working on a Mac version too. Things are better on Linux, but not all rosy. Installing Dropbox, for example, is a surprisingly crappy experience (windows popping up, separate proprietary daemon download, etc). That, and way more user requests than you'd imagine, is why we have http://ninite.com/linux now too.

Certainly looks promising. For some reason it reminds me of Portable Apps.

As for Dropbox, yes, I recently went through installing it. Terrible experience on Ubuntu. I think the reason is mostly that it is using a proprietary daemon. A FUSE driver seems like a much better idea, and if they released it under an open license, it would be as easy as apt-get install dropbox.

Re: Thank you, Ubuntu

#80

Post by koenigdavidmj »

Gormo wrote: post #78
dkarl wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't just solve dependencies they encourage dependencies This is a good thing. Developers' attitude toward dependencies gets very lax when it's too much work to declare them or too much work for the user to satisfy them. Then you get into situations where you install a piece of software and 90% of the functionality is broken, because the developer was "considerate" enough not to "force" a bunch of dependencies…

How about statically-linked builds? Hard drives and memory are cheap compared to the annoyances of having to manage dependencies on the user's system. Package management is a solution to a problem that doesn't need to exist in the first place.

Then some central library has a security hole and half your system has to get updated, instead of just one thing.

Also, you might like http://sta.li/ ;)

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