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Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

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71–80 of 128 posts

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#71

I was taught that it is okay to be envious, what isnt okay was to wish that someone will lose the things we envied about. When I see someone bought a new car, I will pray “I hope his car is useful and he can benefit from it, I hope that someday I will have a car like his or even better”. While it might be hard in practice, so far it helped me stay positive to everyone.

Obese man looks at a fit man and thinks "I wish I looked like that."

Obese woman looks at a fit woman and thinks "I hope she gets fat."

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#72
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the german language there are the two words Neid and Missgunst . Both could be translated as enviousness but have a slightly different meanings. While Missgunst is definitely negative and maybe even destructive, Neid does not need to be negative and can have the meaning like in the example you gave.

This distinction also exists in Russian, though not in single words: белая зависть translated literally as "white envy" and черная зависть i.e. "black envy".

Colour-coding of emotions in different languages is fascinating!

In Swedish, envy is green (grön av avund), but jealousy is black (svartsjuk).

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#73
Envy might be a virtue?

Virtues of a software developer:

1. Lazyness. Lazyness is the first step towards efficiency. Why was the dishwasher invented?

2. Impatience. Impatience is the first step towards performance optimization.

3. Being Anti Social. This allows hyper focus.

4. Pride. The desire to strive ever harder for better code, simplicity, maintainability, more features, etc.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#74
post #57

Also known as the Crab Effect, where the other crabs in a bucket will pull an escaping crab down if he tries to escape - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality There is a lot of this in the West too, although to a lesser degree and in a less open way. Its one of those ancient behaviors and systems of values that we keep applying today that don't make much sense anymore. We don't live in small villages anymore,…

Wow. I did not know that there was such a thing as crab effect! I thought was anecdotal similar to the story of frog doing because of water heating slowly. Would you know if the frog story is true or anecdotal?

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#75
post #5

> "For while a particularly spectacular kill was always cause for celebration, the hunter responsible was insulted rather than flattered." This seems to have the same purpose as the Law of Jante[1] we have in the Nordic countries. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante

As somebody who lives in the nordic countries but is a foreigner I think that the law is not really a specific thing to Nordic countries but just an amusing social commentary of certain types of society. It's the same nearly everywhere that 'boasting' is a bad thing and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

>and the most respectable person is the one who silently gets stuff done.

Except even in this case, others must be aware of the person getting things done. If you managed to do a lot of work and people literally didn't notice or attributed the work to someone else, you won't be respected by them. So what ends up earning the most respect is the ability to spread knowing of your accomplishments without appearing like you are boasting about your accomplishments. That said, in such a system the people likely think they are valuing the person quietly getting things done, ignorant of what they actually value.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#76
I don't see how envy can be good. It can be a motivation booster (to do better, to go further, etc.), but not a positive one by far. When one envies another, there is at some level a certain misunderstanding of the whole concept of someone being that good, which makes this person (maybe even involuntarily) think of himself better or worthier.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#77
Yes, I believe all of our emotions probably serve some evolutionary purpose.

Does that mean they're useful in modern society? Not necessarily.

Being anxious might have helped my ancestors prepare for unexpected famines. Being aggressive might have helped them lock down the resources they needed to survive.

Do those emotions help me as an adult software engineer in Houston? Heck no. Anxiety and aggression just get in the way of a well-lived life.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#78
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? I don't agree, you can ask for redistribution so the weakest in society are helped.

What do you personally gain from having a stronger society of individuals who are no longer weak? No longer afflicted with pity?

"Personal gain" need not factor into things at all. Humans have some degree of natural altruism.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#79
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without envy, there is no point to socialism; if I don't care what my neighbour has, why would I ask the state to enforce its redistribution? I don't agree, you can ask for redistribution so the weakest in society are helped.

What do you personally gain from having a stronger society of individuals who are no longer weak? No longer afflicted with pity?

You're being downvoted but it's a good question, and there is a great answer.

The more people can fully help themselves, the less I have to help them, the more of my production I get to keep.

The increased standards of living of all people, increases the potential for all. More wealth in the economy, more capital that can be invested, more income, more potential jobs.

Speaking simplistically, if my neighbor is doing better, now we can trade. Whereas perhaps he previously, in poverty, could not afford to trade with me. I just gained a new customer and perhaps he can fulfill a demand I have the other direction.

The human mind in general is extraordinary when taken to its potential. Even people with median IQs are capable of tremendous productivity and contribution when they're unleashed.

Violent crime in the US has declined dramatically at exactly the same time the US has dramatically expanded its welfare state. It's highly unlikely that's a coincidence (or solely to be chalked up to removing lead from the environment). People that are less desperate are going to be less violent, they will commit fewer crimes, it will produce a safer society.

At the far end of the scale, I dramatically benefit from there being more Einsteins, not less. I benefit from more Edisons and Teslas, not less. A stronger society ensures that less Teslas die in childhood, and reach their full potential rather than otherwise languishing.

How many great inventors were lost in Mao's genocides and famines? Or otherwise languished in 40 years of extreme, forced poverty with minimal education and sustenance? Plausibly a lot.

The higher the income of the bottom ~2/3, the less welfare they require, the lower taxes can be, and the more they can net contribute to society. The lower taxes are, the more capital becomes available in the private sector to save and invest. As an example, if you considerably move up the incomes of the people in the 30% directly below the median (not the bottom 20%), then they require less of the tax revenue to go to them for social welfare purposes, and they can become greater net contributors to helping the 20% at the very bottom (whether through paying taxes or charity).

At national levels, this has enabled for example the dramatic reduction in aid that needs to go to a country like China or South Korea, as they've climbed out of poverty and into greater prosperity. That aid can now go to the other remaining poor nations, and those countries like China & South Korea can become considerable net contributors to global aid. The whole process dramatically accelerates in a virtuous cycle. The exact same concept applies within a country as well, when it comes to lifting people out of poverty such that less aid needs to go to them and that those people can become net contributors.

Re: Why Envy Might Be Good for Us

#80

Yes, I believe all of our emotions probably serve some evolutionary purpose. Does that mean they're useful in modern society? Not necessarily. Being anxious might have helped my ancestors prepare for unexpected famines. Being aggressive might have helped them lock down the resources they needed to survive. Do those emotions help me as an adult software engineer in Houston? Heck no. Anxiety and aggression just get in…

That does sound anxious (and one could read aggression into it, too). But there are so many more emotions below and on top, that maybe they serve at least some coordination effort. Here you exaggerate the emotion for display, but you virtue signal that you are concerned and signal the concern itself, not to be anxious. So it's a reflexive emotion.

Such things remind me all too often of the fix point combinator and what not. But I'm anxious to miss the point, because at some point logical reasoning doesn't work anymore and leads into a trap, e.g. in case of greed.

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