Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 229 posts

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#71

Post by newfoundglory »

flipp3r wrote: post #34
_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

Wow, this is actually a thing! I thought it was just me. As someone who used to drink a LOT of cola-cola during their teens, caffeine really fucked me up good. I only noticed I was dependant (addicted) on caffeine after a friend pointed out I only felt good again on certain days after coming back from a client where there was no cola available. I took a little bottle with me to the client and felt "normal" that day.…

I regularly stop drinking caffeine for days at a time and have been unable to notice a difference. It's a shame because I was really hoping to find that my headaches had an easy solution like not drinking caffeine, but they don't appear to be correlated.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#72

Post by yomly »

crazygringo wrote: post #58
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

Caffeine == Caffeine

But if a Coke is ~3mg caffeine 100ml and coffee is ~40mg per 100ml, drinking 13.3 "units" of cokes will not be equivalent to 1 "unit" of coffee.

1. Timing of the intake will affect the efficacy (x mg of caffeine over 2 hours vs. 20 minutes is very different to the body)

2. Controlling for time-dependent intake (the spherical human consumed both quantities instantly), concentration of the substance affects the rate / efficiency of absorption by the body (I cannot predict for which way it will go, this stuff is complex) so the net absorbed caffeine will be different between the two substances

3. Delivery mechanisms are different: Coke is very sugary, black coffee is not and is a colloidal suspension. The local chemical environment for the caffeine within these two substances will be different. Sugar is known to affect osmosis, meanwhile who knows wtf the gunk in coffee is doing at the chemical level.

So to sum up "caffeine = caffeine = caffeine" is probably a useful rule of thumb and will get pretty far, but at the physiological/biochemical level, that is as useful as armchair pseudoscience is.

To use a possibly relatable issue: most people find consuming shots of vodka more efficacious than consuming the equivalent amount of beer by alcohol. 3 shots will probably get you more wasted than necking 3 beers

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#73

Post by dwater »

euroclydon wrote: post #5

Surely there’s a better drug than coffee for staying awake for a long time.

There was an article I remember from 2600 about all the various stimulants readily available at the time (1996-97), I found a text version of it: http://67.225.133.110/~gbpprorg/2600/HackHead.html I believe the original title was "Hack Your Head".

Ephedrine was an excellent stimulant, but a few people died because they didn't understand what it would do. You wouldn't feel thirsty, and it was sold as a workout supplement, so people would take it and then exercise outside in the summer and suffer severe dehydration. After that it was made illegal in the US, which is too bad because for me it was much more effective than caffeine and sold over the counter.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#74

Post by ptero »

nottorp wrote: post #45

How about, you know, sleeping? Working in a startup isn't being parachuted behind the enemy lines where your life depends on staying alert. Go home, you'll work better tomorrow.

> Go home, you'll work better tomorrow.

This. Things happen (emergencies, sicknesses, etc.), but if you are sleep deprived due to work more than a couple of times a year, change it! For people saying they do not have this option, go make it (choices, like rights are never given; they are taken). It might take a while, but it is worth it. If you have in demand skills but are not appreciated at your work, move. If you do not have the skills to move, acquire them, etc.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#75

Post by kup0 »

4ad wrote: post #8

I drink a lot of tea. About 1 liter a day as a baseline, but if I do some ultrahike or something I can easily drink 3 liters a day. Sometimes for some reason it's really hard to drink my tea (e.g. I'm in a hotel that doesn't have drinkable tea), so I tried to substitute with other caffeine products. Unfortunately I couldn't find out any reliable data on the caffeine content of the tea that I drink. All the informatio…

Here's some data from various sources regarding caffeine levels in different types of tea, and also some data about extraction:

Theanine and Caffeine Content of Infusions Prepared from Commercial Tea Samples https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4787341/

Caffeine in Tea Revisited http://teaintheancientworld.blogspot.com/2017/06/caffeine-in...

Caffeine Content in 39 Tea Samples https://www.teaguardian.com/tea-health/caffeine-content-39-t...

90% of the tea I drink is loose-leaf, and I'm sure there are definite differences between loose and tea bags, because tea bags very often have very fine almost tea "dust" instead of actual leaves, and the increased surface area makes it extract faster.

The psychoactive effects you are talking about are likely a result of L-Theanine, if I had to guess

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#76

Post by ht85 »

crazygringo wrote: post #58
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

Not a chemist or even a frequent caffeine user either, but from my experience you can't reduce the effect of something you take to its active principle.

For me, the same whisky has very noticeable differences in the effect and after-effect depending on how it's served / mixed.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#77

Post by skipants »

_lbaq wrote: post #23

Caffeine is also linked to panic attacks, anxiety and sleep loss (and loss of quality of sleep), I would recommend staying off caffeine all together, having tried both, I by far more like working in the calmness of not having caffeine circulating in my body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine-induced_anxiety_disor...

Counter-point: I once quit coffee altogether, weening myself off with tea at first. After about 3 months of total caffeine "sobriety" I hated it. I found I enjoyed myself more and was more productive with some caffeine rather than none. It did help me cut back (I went from ~8 cups a day to ~2-4).

I think the level I'm at now -- still ~2-4 cups -- is perfect. I find I'm productive and still sleep well.

Note: 2-4 cups still sounds like a lot, but I mean 1 cup = 250ml not 1 mug.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#78

Post by protonimitate »

nottorp wrote: post #45

How about, you know, sleeping? Working in a startup isn't being parachuted behind the enemy lines where your life depends on staying alert. Go home, you'll work better tomorrow.

I have mild ADD and tons of issues with migraines. Caffeine helps on both fronts.

Do what's best for you, personally, and not what some internet stranger thinks is the correct way to function.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#79

Post by matwood »

crazygringo wrote: post #58
jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

> "a form of caffeine that is particularly potent" I've heard this over and over, but as far as I can tell, caffeine = caffeine = caffeine. I'm not a chemist, but I can't find any mention of any different forms -- it's C8H10N4O2. [1] Is there any scientific evidence that alertness is related to anything but the quantity of caffeine, regardless of whether it's delivered as black tea, mate tea, coffee, pills, etc.? Ass…

It's the other chemicals in the drinks that change the feeling. Tea contains a calming chemical and red bull contains b vitamins. Either of those with caffeine causes a different type of alertness/buzz.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#80

Post by 4rgento »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

Just another data point, but for me it's the opposite. I drink mate every morning becasue its effect is softer than that of coffee.

I only drink coffee when I need extra alertness.

Meditation can also increase your hability to be alert without resorting to drinks.

Post reply on HN