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Why are so many programmers arrogant?

programmers.stackexchange.com

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Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#71

Post by Vivtek »

mseebach wrote: post #13
jacquesm wrote: post #4

They're not really arrogant, they just come off as such. Programmers usually are pretty clever cookies and as a rule are more often right than wrong, even if the subject is not programming, that alone is enough to mark them as arrogant. We also tend to be an opinionated bunch. Some of them compound the problem by no longer considering other people to be occasionally right and them being wrong and do cross the line in…

> For an encore, check 'mathematicians are arrogant', 'physicists are arrogant', 'surgeons are arrogant' and so on. It took me a while to realize that http://xkcd.com/793/ wasn't about programmers..

Ha. My wife is a physicist and appreciated that one. She's not like that - but we know lots of her colleagues who are.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#73

Post by Mz »

dtf wrote: post #69
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

Arrogance born out of genius is more than tolerable. But arrogance born out of mediocrity, ignorance or insecurity is a more common and toxic blend.

Two thoughts:

1) Maybe you missed the "maybes" in my closing remarks.

2) Being exceptionally competent puts one in a social trap. It is generally not acceptable to state that you are that good. It is also not acceptable to lie, and downplaying your competence is a form of deception (aka "lying"). So if you are that good, there is no good answer when the topic comes up.

I will also take this opportunity to note that the surgeon did not come across as arrogant until I inadvertently questioned his professional competence by trying to verbally reassure myself. And, in fact, his reaction was extremely reassuring to me. I went ahead with the surgery with much relief and trust in his ability, something I don't think I would have felt if he had instead tried to nicely address my emotional concerns about the whole thing.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#74

Post by MartinCron »

I've found that when I don't really care about what I'm working on, I can be the most diplomatic and humble programmer around. Tabs vs. spaces? Whatever. This language over that one? No strong opinion.

But in a scenario when what I'm working on is important to me, when I've totally bought-in and care about what's going to happen, I have a much harder time with being properly diplomatic.

Specifically, when I see someone driving us toward a brick wall, I get more and more aggressive as that wall approaches and I'm ignored. When and if that collision happens, I have a hard time not saying "I told you so", if only so people will take me more seriously next time we're headed for a crash.

I once ruined a professional relationship and lost a job because (I believe) my manager couldn't stand the idea of hearing "I told you so" from me one more time.

And yes, it turns out I was right about that last thing as well.

I try to trust my comrades, but I also have to trust my instincts, and when they are at odds over high-stakes things the internal conflict becomes unbearable. Anyone have experience or advice on dealing with this?

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#75

Post by Kilimanjaro »

Age and arrogance go in opposite directions.

We are young, smart and arrogant. We all are. We are smarter than everybody else. The older we grow, the wiser; we use our intelligence to gain knowledge and to balance our life and make the lives easier for those around us.

We become less arrogant and more humble as we grow older.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#76

Post by jamii »

jacquesm wrote: post #50
ThomPete wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I think it's fair to say that you are not the norm.

Why shouldn't it be the norm though, this reminds me of my favorite Robert Heinlein quote: "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty…

Specialization is more efficient. If we all grew our own food, made our own clothes and built our own houses thee would be no time left over to train surgeons or invent computers.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#77

Post by j_baker »

petercooper wrote: post #70
j_baker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

I heard a line in a comedy the other night: "I never compromise. Because if you compromise, you're admitting you aren't right." On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion. I take it you're not married. And if you are, please write a book about this policy and its effects if you use it frequently ;-) Also, an issue about being stubborn about the truth is that there can be…

Well, I'm about as married as any gay male can be. And my boyfriend has learned to put up with it.

"Also, an issue about being stubborn about the truth is that there can be as many versions of the "truth" as there are actors in the situation."

I'd strongly disagree. Different people may have different pieces of the truth (ie the truth could be "Either person x's approach or person y's approach will work"), they might have different perspectives on the truth (ie the truth could be "person x is right about a, b, c, and d but not e while person y is right about e, f, g, and h but not i"), or they might be arguing about a subject where there is no real truth (see religious people for powerful examples). But where the truth exists it is singular.

When presented with conflicting ideas, the goal is to determine if one is correct or they both are correct. Throwing your hands in the air and saying "The truth is subjective" is a cop-out.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#78

Post by tomjen3 »

itg wrote: post #23
Mz wrote: post #5

I'm not really qualified to comment on programmers per se. But I am reminded of a personal anecdote: In my mid-twenties, I had to have minor surgery on my face. My looks were very important to me. I thought I was quite beautiful and this was upsetting to me. I was concerned I would be disfigured but I really had to have the surgery. Trying to make my peace with it, I commented "I guess I can always have cosmetic surg…

You can state the same thing different ways depending on the words you use, tone of voice, etc. Just because you are brilliant in one field doesn't give you a pass to look down on everyone else.

I didn't read it as putting him down at all. This wasn't a competition between the patient and the surgeon about whose medical skills where the best, but about the surgeons skills against the reality of the cyst.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#79

Post by j_baker »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #63
j_baker wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. A lot of people probably consider me arrogant and stubborn. Honestly, I don't care though. Arrogance and stubborn are only flaws when you're wrong . On the other hand, being arrogant and stubborn about the truth is a virtue in my opinion.

...depending on the presentation.

"If you're out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein

A poorly-presented correct idea is still correct. A well-presented incorrect idea is still incorrect.

Re: Why are so many programmers arrogant?

#80

Post by kthxbye »

Also from my experience there seems to a culture of negative motivation going on around engineers/programmers. I've seen a lot of it in open source projects and amongst engineers both professionally and in education. People berate and punish in order to make people understand what is wanted/needed, instead of engaging in teamwork and constructive feedback.
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