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‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#71

Post by Zak »

iguy wrote: post #66
Zak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Possibly a security measure? What I read in the article sounded like the ID was required to submit an entry to the contest, not to be present in the area. I would need more information to comment on alternate reasons. > You can't authenticate without Aadhaar OTP. And don't expect the government to send OTP to an unverified mobile number. Authenticate what? Last time I needed a prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought…

prepaid SIM card (in the US), I bought it on eBay This is highly unusual now. For instance most countries in Europe will now need to see your passport to enable a SIM card. So India isn't an outlier. The stated reason, I believe, is terrorism. Whether this is Orwellian I leave for you to decide.

Yes, that's highly Orwellian and terrorism is an absurd justification. Anybody capable of pulling off a terrorist plot requiring a phone is likely to be able to find a way to get one without such a regulation making a problem for them.

What it does enable is surveilling a person's location and some of their communication without having to do something requiring resources and the possibility of alerting the person that they're a target.

For the record, it's not unusual to be able to buy and use a prepaid SIM card anonymously in the US. There have been a couple proposals to ban it, but they came nowhere near passing.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#72

Post by Zak »

captn3m0 wrote: post #54
Zak wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are KYC regulations for telcos? Found the Orwellian part.

Yes, these have existed for quite some time. However, you could get one with varying different ID proofs earlier - Driving License, Ration Card, PAN (Tax) Card, Voter ID etc. Now, we're all being forced to link _everything_ to a single 12-digit Aadhaar.

What justification is given for this?

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#73

Post by ashwinm »

firasd wrote: post #64
ashwinm wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'. Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.

Yes, I explained the similarities. Aadhaar is a core part of the 'India Stack', which is closely connected to the 'cashless' propaganda during the demonetization disaster. Aadhaar was already flawed as a concept when it was introduced but over the last year there have been sudden mandates to link it to everything. Which makes it far more dangerous. We need to scale it back.

Demonentisation has nothing to do with cashless. it was an afterthought. So no connection to Aadhar.

So you are no different in making propaganda.

Aadhar is here to stay no matter how much fearmongerers whine. It's benefits outweighs risk. A good data protection law is what lacking.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#74

Post by shripadk »

captn3m0 wrote: post #56
shripadk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the co…

I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switchin…

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about after filing of returns. You have to verify it. It's either sending the signed acknowledgement to CPC or everify it digitally. Have you sent the signed acknowledgement to CPC? It's mandatory to send acknowledgement to CPC if you haven't digitally signed it using DSC or Aadhaar. Please check with your CA as the rules are same for personal and corporate income tax.

EDIT: Procedure to verify your submitted tax return: https://www.hrblock.in/guides/itrv-download-guide/

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#75

Post by ashwinm »

firasd wrote: post #17
haltingproblem wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the bank was able to fulfill KYC requirements for someone who qualifies for a below the poverty level scheme? Lack of papers is what Aadhaar is supposed to cure. You are passing the identity buck. These people are so poor they live their whole lives without a solid roof over their head. They don't have a birth certificate, a driver's license, a passport. The mere mention of these documents is somewhat of a cruel j…

Yes, even the very poor in India have voter IDs and the schemes in question already require a ration card. You started off by asking about how to reduce corruption (and I answered that as long as there are subsidies there is going to be leakage) but you keep bringing it back to some airy theoretical concept about 'identity in the state' when Aadhaar is a practical force in the country right now. I haven't linked my A…

Again voter ID or ration card is not unique.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#76

Post by shripadk »

captn3m0 wrote: post #56
shripadk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the co…

I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switchin…

> There is no recourse in the law for someone stealing your phone and signing away your entire property once e-Sign comes in force everywhere.

I agree with you on this. Currently however, this is how it is with everything online. Take any 2-FA service. It's either SMS based or through Google authenticator/yubikey etc. To expect non tech savvy people to use yubikey or Google authenticator is going to be a hardsell.

> I'm just tempted to take a large strength antennae and build a Aadhaar-OTP Wardriving tool.

Hahaha! Provided you know the Aadhaar number for the associated OTP as well ;)

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#77

Post by middleclick »

ashwinm wrote: post #58
firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

Mention of demonetisation explains your 'disturbance'. Aadhar predates this government and it had 80% enrollment before their entry to power. So no need to make it political.

Did you just make an ad hominem?

Allow me to remind you that the current PM who is pushing so hard for Aadhar was against it when opposition because he was worried about the "security".

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#78

Post by captn3m0 »

iguy wrote: post #70
captn3m0 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're reading it wrong. You get 29 INR in your bank account, and add another 1 INR to pay 30 to the subsidy to the shop. But while earlier it was just a walk to the shop and getting your ration card stamped, now you must: 1. Go to your bank (which may not even have a branch in your village) 2. Hope that the network is up 3. Confirm that the money has reached your account. If not, go home and retry (1) on another day…

OK, thanks! Sounds like a massive business opportunity for banking. Your village may not have an ATM but I bet it has cellphone signal. Wasn't every Kenyan SMS-ing money around a decade ago?

We're trying this with "Payment Banks". The DBT scheme itself tries to solve it by directly debiting money from your account and crediting it to the shopkeeper's account on a monthly basis automatically, but the real implementation is still cash withdrawls as of now.

The Kenyan-SMS has also led to a monopoly of mpesa in the market, which the RBI is trying to avoid by bringing some decent regulations in the space of digital banking.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#79

Post by shripadk »

captn3m0 wrote: post #56
shripadk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By authenticate I mean Aadhaar transaction authentication. Say you are filing your tax returns. There are currently three ways to authenticate that the tax return was indeed filed by you: 1. You take a print out of the acknowledgement, sign it and send it to a centralised tax processing unit. 2. You purchase a digital signature and sign it using the same (requires you to be slightly tech savvy). Not to mention the co…

I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switchin…

> The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening

I do not anywhere mention it as a security feature. I actually mention that I find it appealing as I don't want to go through the hassle of obtaining a DSC just to verify my returns. Everifying through Aadhaar is simpler. To expect someone to hack it is quite remote as it would require knowledge of multiple things: my Aadhaar number, access to my network, knowing the date and time of when I decide to file my returns, having to utilise the OTP before i use it or it expires. It's possible for a really concerted attacker but then I start to question his sanity. It's much easier to just break into my home and get me to sign at gunpoint. ;)

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#80

Post by thetruthseeker1 »

captn3m0 wrote: post #45
Zak wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a mixed bag. Not Orwellian: * Requiring identification to get welfare benefits. The article mentions fraud is a big issue. * Use of biometrics. It sounds creepy at first, but without a robust system of record keeping to base the ID card on, this is a good way to ensure each one is unique. Orwellian: * Requiring a government ID to enter a middle school art contest. * Requiring a government ID to buy a pre…

>The article mentions fraud is a big issue. When tackling fraud, you must look at 1)exclusions and 2)cost. In the case of aadhaar, we've seen the project baloon in cost and vision over the span of two different governments. There have been savings number reported by the government that have since been redacted by the World Bank (but the government keeps claiming them). At some point, you must take stock and consider…

What is your solution ? It kind of seems like Aadhar should be better managed... rather than reinvent another identity system, sure I am optimistic that Aadhar will improve (Its a very new system compared to SSN or other identity systems)

Regarding ballooning costs, so many successful programs have had costs that exceeded the plan, so far with Aadhar there has been no evidence that the ballooning costs have been debilitating and on the contrary Aadhar seems to be helping.

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