Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#71

Post by treebeard901 » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:21 PM UTC

danesparza wrote: post #31

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

The classification of cryptography as munitions was an interesting choice. The first amendment may protect domestic encryption capabilities as stated by the wikipedia article. From a legal standpoint, does encryption being classified as munitions also put it into second amendment territory? As information becomes weaponized, it's an interesting thought. The first amendment is arguably more vulnerable these days, so I wonder if perhaps a second amendment argument could be made in support of domestic encryption. It certainly would help with marketing the argument to a certain segment of the population.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#72

Post by niccccccccc » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:22 PM UTC

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

Exactly. China just turned dictatorship, and has already installed AI facial recognition and soon voice recognition software for its police. This could allow China to better manage its Uighyr concentration camps and kidnap freedom fighters in Hong Kong. Along with its ambition to have everything 'Made in China' in 2025, and invade Taiwan, China is looking like a AI enhanced Hitler Germany 2.0.

We need weapons to fight an enemy like this, with help from US technology companies.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#73

Post by 2_listerine_pls » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

You are saying that military R&D is important no matter what they are involved in. This incredibly stupid reasoning can be used to justify the development viruses that can erradicate the human species.

> DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research shouldn't be viewed as a necessarily bad thing.

Let's be spesific: they are using current AI algorithms to track everyone's movements from airborn imagery. It will be used to kill people in drone strikes and for population control.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#74

Post by chiefalchemist » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

The funding come from the DoD because any other appropriate entity is financially starved because the DoD gets so much money. The latest budget provides them:

$700,000,000,000

Or as Obama said in the 2016 State of the Union:

"We spend more on defense than the next 8 nations COMBINED."

Keep in mind, most of that 8 are allies.

I struggle to see why we should be praising a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#75

Post by nyxtom » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:23 PM UTC

I for one would rather have a drone strike program that actually actively avoids civilian casualties as much as possible. There are certainly gray areas here as far as the use of that program from a political standpoint (whether the strikes are warranted or whether it is part of regime changes). On the other hand, by not helping the military become more efficient we also risk losing existing lives (our own and civilian casualties) due to a lack of efficient analysis. We already use statistical analysis and many other methods (human and otherwise) to determine where to make military strikes, might as well improve on this to make fewer mistakes where possible (as gray as that may seem).

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#76

Post by waisbrot » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

SmirkingRevenge wrote: post #19

mtgx wrote: post #16

This has been by far one of the most shameful things Google has done. And their excuse that "they're only analyzing images" is a joke. Analyzing the images and "identifying objects" (their words) is probably 95-99% of the job in a drone strike. So if they're trying to make people think that their role is minimal in drone strikes, they're failing hard at that. I also think Eric Schimidt, who until last December was bo…

So is it simply per se shameful to develop technology for the military, or is there a more nuanced moral argument that this sentiment comes from? Or is there something specific to Google's Maven project that makes it shameful, while other types of military commissioned projects might not be?

Slightly more nuanced. I think there is a clear difference between, say, selling food to the military (the service you provide generally allows the military to run better and the military is frequently responsible for killing people) versus selling bullets to the military (the service you provide allows the military to kill people).

Weapons-targeting systems clearly falls into the latter category. I've worked on military-funded projects for machine translation and I don't feel guilty about that. I would not work on projects (military-funded or otherwise) that were used for targeting. I think that my position is internally-consistent.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#77

Post by komali2 » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

sqdbps wrote: post #18

tzakrajs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google won't take a defense contract and has shed defense projects in the past" was a common theme at Google. Recruiters and employees actively advertised this as a feature of Google's not being evil.

They should stop doing that. I mean who's stopping China from using AI powered military robots? they should think about the bigger picture. Also I think they should invoke AI powered military robots in recruiting, what's cooler than that?!

Realistically... how does this affect a senior AI programmer?

I'd argue the more skilled and, well, rich, you become, the less national borders really matter. Unless you're patriotic, I guess.

>What's cooler than that

Speak for yourself! I would find that disgusting. A given company's culture doesn't have to appeal to everyone, it wouldn't be much of a culture if it did.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#78

Post by adventured » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:24 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #46

criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

...the US military never clashed with Stalin's military AFAIK. Even in the Korean war, the USSR only provided supplies. That standing up to Hitler also involved a peer partnership with the USSR's military.

Before Stalin died, he believed that a conflict with the US was imminent. There was blatantly a hot war brewing between the US and the USSR along the borders of the West/East divide in Europe.

The comment's grandparent could have just as well been defending Western Europe from Stalin's USSR territorial lust. They didn't stop moving west just to be polite.

That vast military stand-off, which became the cold war, was a military conflict. The US deployed over three million soldiers to Europe in the 1950s almost entirely to stop the USSR from advancing any further.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#79

Post by stevehawk » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

Eridrus wrote: post #60

ChuckMcM wrote: post #45

While I appreciate the engineers speaking out, it isn't really practical for a company the size of Google, with the resources it has, to not have programs that work with the military in one form or another. If, as an engineer, it is against your moral code to do any work that supports the military, your choices are limited to working in small companies where everyone is focused on the commercial products and services…

> While I appreciate the engineers speaking out, it isn't really practical for a company the size of Google, with the resources it has, to not have programs that work with the military in one form or another. This is nonsense, Google has plenty of revenue and other non-defense avenues for growth. Companies are not beholden to chase every last dollar, especially if it could alienate their workforce. I don't have the s…

Well, they sort of became beholden when they became publicly traded and exchanged Do No Evil for Maximize Shareholder Returns.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#80

Post by politician » Wed, Apr 04, 2018, 4:25 PM UTC

tclancy wrote: post #34

criley2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

That's a fair point but it also treats life as a zero sum game that's played in a steady-state arena where the threat of Tartars over the next hill is ever present. That's a good way to prevent progress and to defend yourself perfectly against the Last War but one would think the last 30 years of terrorism would have shown us the flaw in that. Put another way: who benefits from $Giant_New_Military_Platform like new f…

Please realize that all state militaries are coevolving together and competing in an on-going global tournament for dominance at all times whether there is an official war or not, that a weakness in one area will be weaponized by a competitor (e.g. our military weakness in preventing Russian disinformation leading to a political upset), that we must continually improve, enhance, and expand our capabilities just to maintain our status quo, and that it is essential to perform well in this competitive environment just to be able to buy items from Walmart, get 15% off your car insurance, drink your Starbucks latte, and carry a placard at the local activist rally.

There are indeed warlords just over the hill, and they have names like Entropy and Resource Availability.