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Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

nytimes.com

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Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#41

Post by galieos_ghost »

mrybczyn wrote: post #5

Google+Alphabet yearly revenues are in the same ballpark as South Africa's GDP. Google/Alphabet is already a country in its own right, and libertarians would already be sceptical of Google's role in society. This is just another step down a long road of Technocracy... Also, wasn't "Don't be evil" dropped as a motto? I thought I read that.

Do you consider all the great scientists who helped the US military during WWII evil? Would you have preferred they sat on the sideline for moral reasons and allowed Germany to win?

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#42

Post by adamsea »

sqdbps wrote: post #2

"As Google defends its contracts from internal dissent, its competitors have not been shy about publicizing their own work on defense projects. Amazon touts its image recognition work with the Department of Defense, and Microsoft has promoted the fact that its cloud technology won a contract to handle classified information for every branch of the military and defense agencies." Google should stop hiring activists an…

I never realized pragmatic was the antonym of active /s

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#43

Post by wolco »

danesparza wrote: post #31
rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

My memory isn't short. You made a point of talking about cryptography. The US government also classified crypto as munitions in order to control its usage and export: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export_of_cryptography_from_th... This had very negative effects on cryptography in general (see the FREAK exploit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FREAK ) Also, why wouldn't this be employed to better monitor Stingray ( http…

They have an agenda that is clear but it doesn't mean they should be shutout because the investment they make can help push new ideas forward.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#44

Post by airstrike »

tclancy wrote: post #21
jryan49 wrote: post #4

Maybe if they were more accurate they would kill less people?

Maybe if they're more accurate the marginal cost of killing people in other parts of the world will go down even more so we'll be even less likely to reflect on whether the fact we can easily use robots to kill people on the other side of the world who have no way of responding symmetrically might come back to bite us in the ass?

Nobody cares how many dimes those drones cost. War isn’t fought using the cheapest means available, but the most effective. Have you seen the size of the U.S. military budget?

This country will continue to meddle in international affairs and, on occasion, get involved in bloody battles. Such is life. War is an integral part of our civilization and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future. You can’t just wish it away.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#45

Post by ChuckMcM »

While I appreciate the engineers speaking out, it isn't really practical for a company the size of Google, with the resources it has, to not have programs that work with the military in one form or another.

If, as an engineer, it is against your moral code to do any work that supports the military, your choices are limited to working in small companies where everyone is focused on the commercial products and services you are delivering. And even then, as some games companies found out, the CEO might do some collaborative work with the military for training or something.

It should come as no surprise that Google teams up with the Federal government on things.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#46

Post by scarmig »

criley2 wrote: post #28
robert_foss wrote: post #22

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about furthering the goals of any military. Contributing means being complicit. The fact that the military funds research doesn't change that.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

...the US military never clashed with Stalin's military AFAIK. Even in the Korean war, the USSR only provided supplies.

That standing up to Hitler also involved a peer partnership with the USSR's military.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#47

Post by lotsofpulp »

criley2 wrote: post #28
robert_foss wrote: post #22

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about furthering the goals of any military. Contributing means being complicit. The fact that the military funds research doesn't change that.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

I don't think it's useful to refer to a military without also including its leaders. The military that fought against Hitler and Stalin and Mao isn't the same military that invades countries and topples governments under false pretenses.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#48

Post by oculusthrift »

criley2 wrote: post #28
robert_foss wrote: post #22

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about furthering the goals of any military. Contributing means being complicit. The fact that the military funds research doesn't change that.

As an engineer I have serious moral qualms about not furthering the goals of our military. After all, I would not be here, and my job would not exist, and the freedom I have to do this work would not exist, if soldiers like my grandfather hadn't stepped up to Hitler and Stalin and Mao and say "No, you're wrong, and we're willing to use violence to protect our way of life". Just my 2c but I definitely respect the ulti…

yes your freedom wouldn’t be here if we weren’t drone bombing weddings of goat farmers in yemen (the poorest people in the world). Or maybe if we weren’t setting civilians on fire in laos or cambodia or bombing pharmaceutical factories in Sudan. Where would our freedom be without that?

you already lost this game when you had to go back to ww2 for a just war.

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#49

Post by komali2 »

rahulmehta95 wrote: post #14

This may be an uncomfortable fact but people have surprisingly short memories: the military funded the majority of the early advances in systems, networking, and cryptography (and especially as a large part of the latter subject area, invested heavily in fundamental, theoretical research). Not saying that I disagree with the employees' opinion, just that DoD/Pentagon involvement in artificial intelligence research sh…

I hear you, and I want to make a "times change" argument.

This is my perspective, because I read too much scifi: I can conceive of a couple possibilities in 300 years.

1. Humanity is gone or stone-aged. Either because it failed to colonize before being wiped out by disease, because it nuked itself, or because it implemented AI in a way that got itself killed.

2. Humanity has turned peaceful, formed a global community (if not wholly, then at least nearly so regarding scientific resources), and colonized.

I draw such a sharp line because I don't see how the resources to colonize can be mustered without justifying it with an arms race unless peaceful cooperation is established. Without this, I think somebody is going to put a nuke in orbit around Mars and call themselves King/Queen of the inner solar system.

Therefore, I think we should be working towards the cultural changes that I believe necessary immediately. This is why I'm a staunch proponent of universal education, universal healthcare, gun control, etc. I think there's no better time than the present to "be in the race together" globally than now. Given climate change, death of bees, super-bacterias, and narcissists with penis-size complexes holding fingers over red buttons, I see a ticking clock.

Avoid (1) by tackling culture, is my theory, and I think that's what these googler employees are here. (I post this very much looking forward to being challenged on all points)

Re: Google Workers Urge C.E.O. To Pull Out of Pentagon A.I. Project

#50

Post by airstrike »

mrybczyn wrote: post #5

Google+Alphabet yearly revenues are in the same ballpark as South Africa's GDP. Google/Alphabet is already a country in its own right, and libertarians would already be sceptical of Google's role in society. This is just another step down a long road of Technocracy... Also, wasn't "Don't be evil" dropped as a motto? I thought I read that.

Countries aren’t defined by the size of their economy but, at the very least, the monopoly of violence. Google doesn’t hold such a monopoly and likely never will...
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