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$40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

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Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#71

Post by kbutler »

psergeant wrote: post #66
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

Ability to pay is not the only way to ration scarce resources, neither is it proven to be the best in all scenarios: this is why you can’t pay to bring your court date forward

But should you be able to pay all the people ahead of you in line enough to convince them to let you move in front of them?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#72

Post by bambax »

> Which would you prefer in general: Being forbidden from doing something at all, or allowed to do it at high cost? Under standard economic theory, the latter should always be better. In the first scenario, you have one option: don't do it. In the second, you have two options, including the same option as before.

This is not how the human mind works.

One part is obvious: would you rather starve, with no options, or starve in front of a beautiful cheesecake, just out of reach? Or worse, in front of a cake out of reach to you, but with other people feasting on it? This is not just "envy", it's loss, in the second case we're losing out and we're extremely loss adverse.

The other part is less obvious but no less real: we average the cost of options. A set of 11 plates with one of them broken is worth less to buyers than a set of 10 good plates, because the average value of 1 plate in the first case is less than in the second one. This has been demonstrated many times.

When you go from one option at no cost (slow lane) to one free option + one paying option, then the perceived value/cost of the "free" option isn't free anymore, it goes up because people average the cost.

(That said, tolls are probably the best possible solution; but the transition is always going to be painful).

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#73

Post by icebraining »

kbutler wrote: post #70
rayiner wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Road capacity is a scarce resource, and it should be allocated with a market mechanism like every other resource. You can then take the economic gain created by the increased efficiency and tax it to provide more public transit services.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

Isn't that the point of using the money for public services, as rayiner suggested?

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#74

Post by CodesInChaos »

nwrk wrote: post #52

Can it be cheaper if you drive faster ? ie. 45mph = $40 ie. 80mph = $30 ie. 100mph = $6 (for contrast) et cetera ? That would make traffic flow and people happy ? Not US driver, don't know the US speed limits. On oposite side, Germany doesn't have speed limits on some tolls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn

Keep in mind that the safety distance you have to the preceding driver increases with speed. Additionally the large speed differential between cars leads to more frequent lane changes, acceleration and breaking, etc. Which hinders the flow of traffic, reducing throughput.

In Germany it's common to use electronic signs to limit speed when the highway is (moderately) congested to help traffic flow more smoothly, increasing throughput (typically to 100 or 120 km/h).

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#75

Post by kbutler »

icebraining wrote: post #73
kbutler wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a really market-oriented guy, but I have concerns about wealth's distorting effect on markets. That is, the "cost" of an item is much less to a wealthy person than to a non-wealthy person. Billionaire Bob can spend $100,000 on a whim, but Pauper Paul can't scrounge $10,000 for life-critical health-care. Or after a natural disaster, market theory says equilibrium prices rise to balance demand, but prices cannot ri…

Isn't that the point of using the money for public services, as rayiner suggested?

That works for this one example, where the government is selling something, effectively creating a tax on people willing to pay to save time.

But most market exchanges do not involve the government (except sales tax). The government can't efficiently capture the excess funds Bob is willing to spend on ice to provide ice for Paul (though the increased price should provide great incentive for people to increase the supply of ice...)

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#76

Post by maxxxxx »

kbutler wrote: post #71
psergeant wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ability to pay is not the only way to ration scarce resources, neither is it proven to be the best in all scenarios: this is why you can’t pay to bring your court date forward

But should you be able to pay all the people ahead of you in line enough to convince them to let you move in front of them?

This is a very slippery slope if some people have much more money than others.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#77

Post by closeparen »

mjevans wrote: post #47
iaw wrote: post #2

> "The real reason there's sticker shock is that the real cost of road transportation is hidden from most voters. Gas tax money goes to states and the US Department of Transportation which flows back as what seems like free federal money to build a lot of roads. Meanwhile, every transit project has to scrimp for funds..." "...estimated that tolls would have to be at least $41 to pay off the costs of construction." A…

A lack of urban planning. * Not enough family sized units in the city (drive down cost with supply). * Insufficient quality of life in building codes. (Noise, smell, clean air, green spaces) * Lack of vertical density; This is begging for Cave of Steel like results complete with indoor parks and atriums.

There's not a lack of urban planning; there's an urban planning (and popular) consensus "lack of vertical density" == "quality of life."

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#78

Post by dfc »

maxxxxx wrote: post #37

My main concern is that with tolls that high that only people with a lot of money can afford them (I make six figures but I doubt I would ever pay $40 for a toll. I would need much more money). These are also often the most influential people so they may think that everything is OK because they can afford the toll and never suffer in traffic. I think the same is happening with health care. Most people in Congress hav…

If you make one friend with someone in your neighborhood or your workplace and carpool the express lane is free. It's that easy. That's what one of my coworkers' wife does. Another person I work with comes to work at 0500, others come after 1000.

Re: $40 road tolls offer insight into commuter psychology

#79

Post by sharpercoder »

We have the best road system in the world with high quality roads over the whole country. Most roads are "rain-resistant", meaning heavy rainfall does not affect road conditions negatively. We don't have any toll roads.

We do pay a relatively high tax for it though. The article is spot on that tolls are the consequence of public not willing to increase their taxes.

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