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HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

prisonism.co.uk

71–80 of 119 posts

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#71
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would heartily recommend "Life at the Bottom: The Worldview That Makes the Underclass" by Dr. Theodore Dalrymple. It gives keen insight into the cultural mindset of victimization that produces the persistent underclass. From the overview: "Theodore Dalrymple, a British psychiatrist who treats the poor in a slum hospital and a prison in England, has seemingly seen it all. Yet in listening to and observing his patien…

Isn't this self contradictory? Instead of taking personal responsibility for a failed set of values, instead the author blames an "elite culture searching for victims".

This "everyone has ultimate personal responsibility" way of thinking is uniquely American as far as I can see. Even without giving much leeway to self-victimization politics, analysis leads clearly to (1) you not being a coherent agency, often getting besides yourself or outside of your mind; or even not being the same person who shoplifted as a teen and (2) you been in many important ways a drop in an ocean, an atom of mass being. Of course individuality plays a very important role in the Enlightenment kind of rational civilization we strive for, but it doesn't mean non-individuality ("dividuality" and "collectivity") are not huge aspects of how we live.

As Alain de Botton once put it, in England the poor are "unfortunates", in America they're losers.

In Dalrymple's world, elites have a duty to set the tone and the agenda; and they are instead shirking from making judgement calls and saying "good is good, bad is bad".I don't agree much (we have elites telling us how to think as it is), but he points in the general direction of something without hitting the bullseye.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got Al Capone for tax evasion. Sometimes the laws you see as unjust are there for a reason. In California, for instance, a DUI has a part A and B so if they drop one part you always get convicted of the other.

Are you suggesting that most offenders of what are typically seen as 'minor' or 'victimless' crimes are actually guilty of more serious crimes, but for whatever reason cannot be caught or prosecuted?

He's saying that minor crimes are the element of indeterminacy that gives the legal system wiggle room to dole out arbitrary punishment when actual circumstances almost, but not fully warrant normal punishment.

A classic example is Al Capone caught for tax evasion. A more recent one is OJ Simpson jailed for some break-and-entering bullshit because everyone wants to punish him for those famous murders.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#73
post #53
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> prisons should be to rehabilitate What I personally appreciate the most is the simple fact of having dangerous people confined so that the danger to others (including myself) is no longer there.

Why do we think that "dangerous people" is a coherent concept? Are there actually two million people in the US who are inherently dangerous and will commit crimes no matter what?

It's hard to know the exact number, but there certainly are people prone to violence. I don't see any indication there exists a reliable method to make them less so.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#74
post #49
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it probably prevented hundred of Madoff wannabes...

"Probably"? If we're going to deny people the most fundamental human rights, we need a bit more rational reasoning than "probably".

The most fundamental human rights are to be able to live without suffering what the guys that are in these prisons do to the society. Living without fear of violence, rape, murder, being burglarized, conned, etc. These are human rights.

Merely keeping someone in a cell is a rather gentle treatment compared to how other cultures or other times treat/treated criminals.

Now we can discuss sentence lengths, prison sentencing for certain non violent crimes, etc. But I am sure I am not alone to have no sympathy for the idea that putting criminals in jail is violating their human rights.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#75
post #19
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how to solve prisons in America: go full Liberal. states want private prisons. prisons should be to rehabilitate. so pay the prison business only if it delivers. i.e. pay private prisons on a rehabilitation rate instead of simply the number of inmates. it's not like you're expected to pay for damaged goods in a regular business transaction, so simply stop doing so with private prisons.

> prisons should be to rehabilitate A lot of people, regardless of political persuasion, believe that the purpose of prisons is to punish those inside. No more, no less, and any "rehabilitation" is just something that happens alongside (and often in spite of) the real purpose.

The purpose of prisons is to keep felons away from people's children.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#76
post #52
post #7

For more cheery prison reading, here's an article from a reporter who worked undercover as a guard at a private US prison: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/06/cca-private-pris... . IMO, the whole idea of prisons is inherently inhumane. We've really got to do better.

> IMO, the whole idea of prisons is inherently inhumane. We've really got to do better. At some point I reread Isaiah 61:1, "...to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound...," and it's been bugging me ever since that prison is, as far as I know, not a concept in the Judeo-Christian worldview. Isaiah doesn't want to proclaim liberty to the unjustly captive and release to…

> And is it my religious duty as a Christian to fight for release for all the prisoners?

I think it probably is.

Prisons are pretty inhumane: this has been recognized in the modern era by people as disperate as Johnny Cash and Eugene Debs[0] (and many others besides).

The cloak of "rehabilitation" or "correction" is really just a way of making punishment more paletable -- and as others in the thread have commented, that is actually what many people (in the US and Britain certainly) believe prisons are for, and ought to be for. But punishment doesn't improve society: recitivism rates remain very high even with very brutal criminal justice systems, and obviously don't deter. Even the "Bloody Code" in the 19th century in the UK didn't work, otherwise crime would have died out.

The causes of crime are various and complex. If we want to reduce crime and bring about justice and security for everyone, we need to address those causes. And as Debs wrote about rather eloquently after spending time in prison, all the American system has done for hundreds of years, by and large, is take people in desperate circumstances and make those circumstances even more desperate. It essentially exacerbates the causes of crime in countless instances.

Thus the fight for real justice and real peace has to be the fight not just on behalf of victims, but on the perpatrators as well. It prevents more victims, for one. But Christian duty, and Christian compassion, also demands caring attention to everyone, even people that have done truly terrible things. This isn't easy, or even pleasant, but that's one of the real radical roots of Christianity.

That struggle for justice and peace isn't as simple as "open the gates of the prisons, and let people do what they want." A lot of people would try to reduce such an argument to that. It's a process, and a path, and taken seriously, we could find ourselves at the end of that path with a society that is fairer, happier, more peaceful, and which has no need of prisons.

(And as a further aside of personal interest, that question of radical Christianity and the very real attention to the precepts of the gospels was one of the things that led George Fox to found the Quaker movement, which was also for a long time considered insidiously radical, and violently surpressed: largely because the Quakers refused to swear oaths or participate in war. The Peace Testimony of the Quakers -- also often treated in reductive terms along the lines of "oh, so you don't fight to defend anyone then" -- is pretty powerful stuff, that acknowledges the complexities of conflict and violence[1], but also the causes of conflict and violence, and seeks to end violence by putting an end to the causes of it[2].)

[0]: https://archive.org/details/wallsbars00debs

[1]: http://qfp.quaker.org.uk/passage/24-21/

[2]: http://www.quno.org/areas-of-work

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say I would not want to live in a society that "accommodates" the needs of rapists, murderers, child molesters as well as the various petty criminals. Sin City was a dark film, I never found it a model for cultural structure.

What about one that accommodates people who possess marijuana? What about a society that accommodates people who have opioid addictions and need medical help? I think you have a rather skewed idea of the majority of our prison population. I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

> most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

I assume there are also a lot of people in prison that aren't rapists or murderers but still cause a lot of troubles if left to their own device. What should be done with these ones? I agree prison is cruel and inhuman and I'm all for better detention conditions, but I don't think it's realistic to suggest we should leave these people walk freely (or to suggest that they don't exist). What are the alternatives?

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#79
post #46
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison sentences can't prevent the next Madoff, in the same way that they didn't prevent Madoff.

But it probably prevented hundred of Madoff wannabes...

I'm going to have to insist on a citation for that claim.

Re: HM Prison – A Survival Guide (2015)

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can say I would not want to live in a society that "accommodates" the needs of rapists, murderers, child molesters as well as the various petty criminals. Sin City was a dark film, I never found it a model for cultural structure.

What about one that accommodates people who possess marijuana? What about a society that accommodates people who have opioid addictions and need medical help? I think you have a rather skewed idea of the majority of our prison population. I'll give you a hint, though: most of them aren't rapists, murderers, and child molesters.

>"What about one that accommodates people who possess marijuana? What about a society that accommodates people who have opioid addictions and need medical help?"

Marijuana at least in the US, is an example of where society is actually changing to accommodate people:

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/state-marijuana-laws-map-m...

Also the Opioid epidemic is finally getting the attention it deserves at the federal level in the US. I think we will see an end to the cruel policies that are in place:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/trumps-opioid-commissio...

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