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More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

theguardian.com

71–80 of 136 posts

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#71
post #61
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

I read the whole thing and I think the allegations hold. There is one citation to a scientific article in the memo: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004.... . It's a meta analysis that looks at abstract personality traits (agreeableness, people-orientation) in studies involving socialized adults. The big takeaway is that these studies show that women are more "agreeable" and "people-oriented."…

> that software is "thing-oriented" rather than "people-oriented

Yes, that is the dominant view. You may have a different opinion (which you haven't substantiated except by assertion), but that's just that, your opinion.

> without proof, that these observed differences are stable across cultures.

Actually, most of the studies that replicated these findings (with large effect sizes and very large sample sizes) were cross cultural.

I collected references here:

http://blog.metaobject.com/2017/08/the-science-behind-manife...

One of the most interesting finding (that's also been replicated), is that gender differences in these traits increase the more egalitarian the society. This is the exact opposite of what you'd expect if the differences were caused by cultural pressure.

> flimsy, embarassed to be that sloppy in an HN post..

Well, you just were.

EDIT: And even if he had been completely wrong, that doesn't make what he wrote ("We need more diversity, but we're doing it wrong") misogynistic in any way shape or form.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#72
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Reporting that those condemnations occurred (they did) isn't an implicit validation If 9/11, Iraq and WMDs have taught us anything, it is that repeating a lie enough times makes it true. This is repeating the lie. Sure. It's done by reference only, and not directly, but it's still a repetition.

> 9/11 What lies are you referring to?

I was mostly referring to how Iraq after 9/11 was repeatedly claimed to have WMDs. This was done to justify a war, which was obviously actually about oil.

US intelligence agencies time and time again claimed to posses evidence of Iraq having WMDs, and how it was vital to invade to stop Saddam from using them.

After the invasion it was obvious to pretty much everyone that the WMDs weren't there, they had been deliberately lied to, and that the "evidence" was manufactured.

I remember even Colin Powell being furious about this, seeing as he was the one who stood in front of the UN presenting the "evidence" as fact. A massive loss of face. He was not happy.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#74

Please downvote! It's 2017, an introduction to a sentence I totally hate, and 60 women are suing a progressive company for sexism. One freaking hundred years, or something, after women started voting. What happened in that time? Women were blind to say the least? How is this NOT evidence that men and women are different. I've seen countless cases of men fighting and swearing at each other, bragging about themselves,…

And I immediately regret getting back on social media after this. I was honestly hoping I wouldn't see this sort of thing on HN, as I have on Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook.

What does this post bring to the discussion ? This is worthless.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#75
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just psuedo-scientific garble As Julian Assange pointed out, it's been reviewed by a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience and in large part it checks out. http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... > Why is the tech world turning itself upside down for a mediocre undergrad paper? Precisely…

> a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience Only one of these is qualified to comment on biological claims.

But all of them are qualified to comment on the differences between the two genders.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#76
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

The Guardian (and other news outlets) can report on claims that others make without fear of repercussion. If their reported viewpoint is later shown to be defamatory, they can fall back on simply reporting the facts: Some other source condemned the document.

But if they make the claim that a document, person, or company is misogynistic or scientifically inaccurate, stating it as fact, then they are liable.

This is why so much reporting today is sprinkled liberally with the word "alleged". It's more common (and reasonable) in reporting on crime, when police or prosecutors claim that someone is guilty before the trial is complete, but it seems to be a habit that seeps into all reporting.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#77
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate > Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? Maybe I'm being pedantic, but the document was widely condemned as being both of those things. Reporting that those condemnations occurred (they did) isn't an implicit validation of said condemnations.

Reporting the condemnations without commenting on their truthiness could be considered to be implicity validating them.

And because the two sides of the topic lives in their own social echo chamber, everyone will find enough validation on both claims and counterclaims, without being exposed to the the other side argument, in full with its flaws or in the parts that holds water.

The real victim here is debate. Even suggesting there's an issue worth debating is ripe for being flagged and flogged, and that's bad.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#78
post #51

Every time an article like this pops up, I see the same sort of response. It's always - Women don't negotiate - Women get pregnant - Women work in lower pay professions And 90% of the time, the article already accounts for the nuances of those topics. Not to mention these arguments have been answered thoroughly many times over, and a cursory google would reveal that. I just wish people would do some basic research be…

Even if those facts are true, Google must have programs to make things fair. For same responsibilities same salary. You can say women are different than men or say they are exactly equals. Whatever is your position for the same job you must have the same salary. There shouldn't be any discussion here.

> For same responsibilities same salary. Why is that? If there is someone who is willing to take on those responsibilities for less pay, well that's just fine for the company and I think that people tend to forget that Google (and many other IT companies) is a for-profit company.

For me at least, I've always seen salary negotiations as somewhat of a "right person at the right moment". If you're very lucky and the company really needs they will be willing to pay you more than what you would make at a different company on the same role, maybe more than what others are doing on the same role, just because you were there, at that time, when they were most in need. It may not always be like that, but think of it as demand/offer relationship.

So regardless of gender/race it's the need of the company that comes first. Because as a employee you fulfill a need that the company has and you are being paid for that.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite recently, Google was found guilty of colluding to depress engineer salaries via "no poaching" agreements. Google doesn't get the "free market" benefit of the doubt anymore in these matters.

"no poaching" is illegal but it doesn't go against free market principles. It's just companies willingly agreeing not to poach, as long as there is no coercion, it doesn't go against free market principles. Now, the question of whether it is unethical or not is a whole other topic. I think that "no poaching" is not very efficient anyway as it usually happens between incumbent companies only whose stock isn't growing…

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Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#80
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just psuedo-scientific garble As Julian Assange pointed out, it's been reviewed by a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience and in large part it checks out. http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... > Why is the tech world turning itself upside down for a mediocre undergrad paper? Precisely…

Well obviously Assange is an expert on the matter.

No one is claiming that Assange is an expert on the matter.
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