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More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#61
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

I read the whole thing and I think the allegations hold. There is one citation to a scientific article in the memo: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004..... It's a meta analysis that looks at abstract personality traits (agreeableness, people-orientation) in studies involving socialized adults. The big takeaway is that these studies show that women are more "agreeable" and "people-oriented."

Everything after that is handwaving and ipse dixit. Egregiously, the memo takes it for granted that software is "thing-oriented" rather than "people-oriented." That defies reality. Software development is far more collaborative and social than, say, being a historian (a field where women receive 45% of the PhDs).

The memo also asserts, without proof, that these observed differences are stable across cultures. That's just false. Take education, for example. In India, men are overrepresented in teaching (80% of teachers are men).[1] And gender representation in STEM majors varies dramatically between different countries. Women are 40% of the STEM workforce in China. Over a third of the USSR's engineers were women, even in the 1960s.

In short, the reasoning in the article is so flimsy I'd be embarassed to be that sloppy in an HN post, much less in a company-wide memo. Which brings me to sexism. I have a hard time believing that anyone smart enough to work at Google actually finds such sloppy reasoning convincing. Instead, the memo smacks of the sort of grasping at straws rationalization used to justify existing prejudices.

[1] The underlying study also makes egregious assumptions about whether professions are "people oriented" versus "thing oriented." Figure 1 depicts a people-things axis and an ideas-data axis. It puts "teacher" at the far end of the "people" axis, and characterizes that as a feminine profession. The study also characterizes "biologist" on the masculine side of the column, even though a significant majority of biology majors in the U.S. are women.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#62

How is Google handling pay? Is there a level system with fixed pay levels? Or can anyone negotiate his salary - in limits - when starting his job?

https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-salary-ranges-of-each-lev... https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm It seems similar to the way it was at Facebook in that when you start, you'll be assigned a level based on your previous experience and it'll be corrected soon afterwards if it turns out to have been wrong. They mostly corrected up, though - it was very rare for someone to be assigned a high leve…

So there is a band and you negotiate your salary?

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#63
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

It was widely condemned. The document has been inaccurately labeled (I've seen a Slate op-ed making statements that are blatantly false) , but the people who are acting like it is some kind of academic work have apparently never done academic work. The guy took a few academic sources and mixed in stuff from the New York Post. It's not well sourced. What people do see is an academic study linked and say "see, this is…

> it's just psuedo-scientific garble

As Julian Assange pointed out, it's been reviewed by a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience and in large part it checks out.

http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-...

> Why is the tech world turning itself upside down for a mediocre undergrad paper?

Precisely because it accurately reflects the world, but we're seeing a strong backlash to it from a certain segment of the population.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#64
post #6

Here is a clue for everyone: you aren't paid according to the value you bring. You are either paid according to some pseudo-arbitrary schedule or you are paid what you can be had for. Unless Google has a secret pay penalty for females, the problem here is women being willing to work for less. No lawsuit is needed to correct that.

Quite recently, Google was found guilty of colluding to depress engineer salaries via "no poaching" agreements. Google doesn't get the "free market" benefit of the doubt anymore in these matters.

how did that story end? last time I heard the lawyers were trying to low-ball the defendants by accepting a ridiculously low payout

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#65
post #6

Here is a clue for everyone: you aren't paid according to the value you bring. You are either paid according to some pseudo-arbitrary schedule or you are paid what you can be had for. Unless Google has a secret pay penalty for females, the problem here is women being willing to work for less. No lawsuit is needed to correct that.

Quite recently, Google was found guilty of colluding to depress engineer salaries via "no poaching" agreements. Google doesn't get the "free market" benefit of the doubt anymore in these matters.

"no poaching" is illegal but it doesn't go against free market principles. It's just companies willingly agreeing not to poach, as long as there is no coercion, it doesn't go against free market principles. Now, the question of whether it is unethical or not is a whole other topic. I think that "no poaching" is not very efficient anyway as it usually happens between incumbent companies only whose stock isn't growing as much as it used to. There's always an Uber or a Facebook around to poach your best employees anyway with generous stock options offers, and they do.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#66
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was widely condemned. The document has been inaccurately labeled (I've seen a Slate op-ed making statements that are blatantly false) , but the people who are acting like it is some kind of academic work have apparently never done academic work. The guy took a few academic sources and mixed in stuff from the New York Post. It's not well sourced. What people do see is an academic study linked and say "see, this is…

> it's just psuedo-scientific garble As Julian Assange pointed out, it's been reviewed by a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience and in large part it checks out. http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... > Why is the tech world turning itself upside down for a mediocre undergrad paper? Precisely…

> a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience

Only one of these is qualified to comment on biological claims.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#67
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was widely condemned. The document has been inaccurately labeled (I've seen a Slate op-ed making statements that are blatantly false) , but the people who are acting like it is some kind of academic work have apparently never done academic work. The guy took a few academic sources and mixed in stuff from the New York Post. It's not well sourced. What people do see is an academic study linked and say "see, this is…

> it's just psuedo-scientific garble As Julian Assange pointed out, it's been reviewed by a professor of social psychology, a PhD in personality psychology, a professor in evolutionary psychology, and a PhD in sexual neuroscience and in large part it checks out. http://quillette.com/2017/08/07/google-memo-four-scientists-... > Why is the tech world turning itself upside down for a mediocre undergrad paper? Precisely…

Well obviously Assange is an expert on the matter.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#68
post #31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's being alleged is: “They are concerned that women are channeled to levels and positions that pay less than men with similar education and experience,” I have no idea if that's true, but if so, that could be a sort of "secret pay penalty". It is a somewhat difficult path to negotiate at hiring as levels and titles aren't consistent across companies.

I am pretty sure you can find big pay differences when comparing only men with the similar education and experience.

You are proposing the model:

    wage ~ education + experience + error
If the errors are correlated with education or experience, that indicates a confounding variable problem. Most data shows that including race and gender as explanatory factors improves the model:

    wage ~ education + experience + gender + race + error
Until the coefficients of gender and race become approximately zero, one can say that the market is discriminatory. The counter-argument is that race and gender are not actually the real explanatory variables, but only proxies for better variables, like "ethic" or "determination". Those kinds of arguments are often viewed as racist and sexist.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#69
post #61
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

I read the whole thing and I think the allegations hold. There is one citation to a scientific article in the memo: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004.... . It's a meta analysis that looks at abstract personality traits (agreeableness, people-orientation) in studies involving socialized adults. The big takeaway is that these studies show that women are more "agreeable" and "people-oriented."…

If there's one thing I've learned by being around a lot of highly educated people, it's that you should never underestimate the power of pre-conceived notions to live beyond a sane lifespan in a person's mind. I don't find it at all difficult to believe that anyone smart enough to work at Google would find such reasoning convincing. Indeed, I have seen smarter people convinced by sloppier reasoning that happens to align with what the person wants to be true.

Re: More than 60 women consider suing Google, claiming sexism and a pay gap

#70
post #61
post #8

> The document, which was widely condemned as misogynistic and scientifically inaccurate Citation needed? Have The Guardian actually read the memo? They are re-iterating misconceptions based on Gizmodos original story, where Gizmodo deliberately gave a misleading report, removed sources and incorrectly presented an internal memo for internal discussion as an "anti-diversity manifesto". Even a cursory glance of the ac…

I read the whole thing and I think the allegations hold. There is one citation to a scientific article in the memo: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/wol1/doi/10.1111/j.1751-9004.... . It's a meta analysis that looks at abstract personality traits (agreeableness, people-orientation) in studies involving socialized adults. The big takeaway is that these studies show that women are more "agreeable" and "people-oriented."…

Not only that, but software engineering at the very least sits at the intersection of people & things. Very few people build things for the sake of things, and I think it's a fair assumption that "people-oriented" thinking, when building for people, may have business benefits that aren't as simply quantifiable as "Candidate A more assertively diagrammed a binary search tree on a whiteboard than Candidate B".
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