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When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

economist.com

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Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#71

Post by bitexploder »

oldboyFX wrote: post #11

Still not sure what to believe on this issue. Some points of discussion are (unrelated to article): 1. If women were 25% cheaper than men while being as competent, wouldn't white/male capitalists trip over themselves to only hire women to increase their profits? 2. Women are less likely to negotiate salary and assert themselves, as women in general are more agreeable than men. Is this behavior based in biology or is…

As mentioned elsewhere, doesn't this article sort of refute the idea that women don't negotiate salary well if their pay for the same rank/role is just 1% different than that of their male counterparts?

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#73

Post by darawk »

mrkurt wrote: post #48
darawk wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not sexism, though. That's women negotiating less.

It's not individual sexism, but it _is_ systematic sexism. Women generally don't handle negotiating the same as men. But negotiation skills aren't relevant to most jobs. So if that's a factor in how people get paid, it's _systematically_ sexist.

I disagree. Women have the same opportunity to negotiate that men do. The fact that they choose to negotiate less is on them.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#74

Post by dgfgfdagasdfgfa »

klipt wrote: post #27
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Teachers make more per hour than doctors, when you factor in benefits like pension and not having huge medical school loans: http://www.bestmedicaldegrees.com/salary-of-doctors/

Teachers work long hours after school.

Also, I was under the impression the money in being a generic "doctor" was running your own practice.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#75

Post by oldboyFX »

johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

Do you think there are biological differences between genders ?

For example, is the fact that men tend to negotiate more a social construct, or is it based in biology?

Should society tax men for their behavior and redistribute the wealth to women?

I'm not arguing for any side by the way. Not sure what to think of this myself.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#76

Post by lloydde »

darawk wrote: post #22
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work. What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conceptio…

"People are paid according to the value they produce" grossly simplifies compensation. If we must generalize compensation: people are paid the lowest amount they will accept.

Supply and demand and value are central to the equation, but large variability in compensation among near identical profiles in the US and Canadian software sectors is an indicator that the individual isn't good at knowing their value.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#77

Post by fiatjaf »

Perhaps companies who hire more women are companies that pay less generally. They are hiring women because they are cheaper.

Perhaps jobs that pay less are less attractive to men who can be better paid at some other job, so these jobs attract more women.

If the above is true, then there is indeed a "pay gap", but it is not the consequence of any systemic sexism.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#78

Post by merb »

Others wrote: post #28
darawk wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole point is that the way society systematically undervalues women-dominated professions is sexism at work. What? Can you explain how that is possible? As far as I know, people value things according to what value they obtain from them. There is no way for that to be 'sexist'. People are paid according to the value they produce. To call that sexist is just completely inconsistent with any reasonable conceptio…

The problem is gender roles. Women are taught by society to think that, as women, they should go into certain careers. These careers, like teaching, tend to be lower paid than the careers men are encouraged to go into.

actually that even starts in the early life. with barbie or special lego's just for women.

p.s.: my niche loves my old lego's more than the girlish ones.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#79

Post by johnfn »

illuminati1911 wrote: post #45
johnfn wrote: post #17

The whole point is that society systematically undervaluing women-dominated professions is sexism. It makes sense that the pay gap disappears when the job differences go away, because the job differences are the pay gap. A good example is teaching. Teaching is an incredibly valuable job. It's also dominated by women. It also happens to be way, way underpaid. It embarrasses me to see this on HN.

And job differences are individual decisions. We can finally stop the "women are being paid less/discriminated ...yadayada..." -horseshit. Teaching is done/funded by the society in most cases and paid with tax dollars. Some jobs being "underpaid" or paid too much are problems that come from the lack of real capitalism where everybody would be paid their actual market value and we could remove the whole word "underpai…

> And job differences are individual decisions.

What? So you became a (I assume) programmer due to yourself alone? You didn't have any help learning how to use a computer from your parents, you didn't have any encouragement of your peers to continue, you weren't influenced at all by society and how it favors certain behaviors, no good teachers helped you learn the requisite math or science or critical thinking? It was all entirely a decision made in a vacuum?

Your viewpoint is far too reductionistic.

Re: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears

#80

Post by khedoros1 »

rexpop wrote: post #7
onewhonknocks wrote: post #3

When adjusted for factors such as hiatuses for raising kids, the answer is 'no.'

Why don't men take these hiatuses?

I took one (by being laid off 2 days before my child was born). I don't recommend that method, although I'm not sure how else I would've gotten 6 months paternity leave to help out at home.

The ladies at work here seem to be out for 1-3 months after giving birth, in most cases.

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