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A 12-Month Campaign of Fake News to Influence Elections Costs $400K

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Re: A 12-Month Campaign of Fake News to Influence Elections Costs $400K

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have non-anecdotal evidence to back up this claim?

Yep: -a lot about what was written in the presidential election last year seems to have been wishful thinking or meant to influence not inform. And this is from somebody who doesn't like Trump. - Swedish police has no-go zones, firefighters gets attacked - journalists keeps telling everything is fine. - and bad reporting from the Middle east has plenty of crazy examples. (Journalist: "Israelis, the most advanced army…

> Swedish police has no-go zones, firefighters gets attacked - journalists keeps telling everything is fine.

This still isn't true. There are many legitimate issues with integrating immigrant populations into fairly insular and homogeneous societies. People lying about the magnitude of those problems really, really discredit efforts to make them better though.

Swedish police are incredibly well trained.. it's absurd to think they've just abandoned parts of major cities, especially when those cities are safer than most large cities in the US. Malmo, the 'center' of all of the alleged police no-go zones has a murder rate equal to that of San Diego.. It's 90% lower than the murder rate in Chicago. The overall murder rate is dramatically lower than the rate in the US:

https://imgur.com/a/wKh0X

It's really bizarre how the right wing in the US has chosen Sweden as the symbol for their refugee distrust when there's very little evidence that their problems are anything more than those seen by every major city with large impoverished populations of any background.

Re: A 12-Month Campaign of Fake News to Influence Elections Costs $400K

#72
post #63
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with most of what you say, except for the implicit presumption that the general case is important. We don't need to ban all lies, we just need to stop some. Perhaps prohibit news organizations from lying; then we only need to figure out how to do that without falling into censorship. I agree with you entirely that science is unfairly characterized. We need some more Mythbusters. They were doing science, perha…

> Perhaps prohibit news organizations from lying; then we only need to figure out how to do that without falling into censorship. That's an interesting idea, though it then leaves a few very difficult questions that would need answering. Namely: 1. Who's a news organisation/journalist (this is already an incredibly controversial point as is)? 2. How do you prove intent? Because you could easily defend lies as mistake…

I don't have any strong suggestions on point 3, but there are some tools we could leverage for the other two. We have done things like this for other industries and sometimes it works well.

First, we need a list of news companies that self identify as such. Second, we need a group of people who aren't the executive or legislative branch to act as watchdogs with a solid set of rules, next we laws stating what the punishments are for lies and finally we need to limit who can say they provide "News".

We have a number of non-profit groups for those that self-identify as journalists. Some of those help organize or train people. A new one could be created or one of those could create a listing of self identifying news companies. If that is unsuitable (and the FCC weren't our enemy) then the FCC could directly maintain such a list. We Good success creating such lists, consider Voting Testing Labs (labs that test voting machines), none are run by the government, but they all follow government rules.

If non-profits or private groups are doing the list keeping then they have extra leverage to kick out news organizations s, but that is not strictly required. As long as someone can de-list a news company for extreme violation and punish for minor ones. This could be the courts, but doesn't have to be as long its it is not the people making the laws or holding the lists. A consortium of people from the industry would likely be an ideal list keeper, and they could also make rules without getting the involved too much.

Then we need clearly spelled rules on "lying". It doesn't have to actually be lying, which requires intent, it can be a level of habitual innacuracy on a given topic. It doesn't matter if it was intentional, but if your news org kept saying something demonstrably false about one candidate or one topic the watchdogs will jump in and try to leverage the rule to punish that news org. Bonus points if we can somehow get the news companies to be watchdogging each other, again the cosortium of news organizations could help with this.

Then finally "news" companies that cannot play with this kind of oversight don't get to use the word "News" to describe themselves, or in Trademarks, Logos or Names. We could also incentive people to become news organizations by providing tax breaks and using groups like the ad council to tout the advantage of news companies over entertainment companies. It would take a long time before we trusted it, but in the long I think something like this could create a stable self-correcting governing for responsible news reporting. We might have parts of this already I only have superficial knowledge that industry, this is largely transplanting ideas from other places.

Re: A 12-Month Campaign of Fake News to Influence Elections Costs $400K

#73
post #51
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of speech purism is probably unworkable. I'm old enough to remember people arguing that spam was free speech and that spamfighting was immoral. Fake news is much more sophisticated than spam but is ultimately going to encounter the same fight.

Today, we have a big 10 situation where 95% of all email travels through 10 hosts... gmail, live, aol, yahoo, etc. Email was designed to be open to all, but thanks to the spam fighting tactics employed, we ended up with all the power concentrated in the hands of a few. We lost nntp entirely, but that wasn't due to spam. The copyright industry shut it down under the premise of "think of the children." http was designe…

A small set of hosts intersecting with those 10 also ditched their netnews newservers because of, as you say, "think of the children." The abandonment was by the ISPs, not so much the users.

95% of a full NNTP server feed was pr0n warez and spam - particularly in alt. - but the remaining 5% in for ex comp.* and sci.* is sorely missed and yes, to my neighbor replies, the nnrp clients _were_ more useable and useful than the broadly dispersed grains of unrelated phpbb servers we have now [this para is admittedly anecdata based on my time as a newsadmin\

Re: A 12-Month Campaign of Fake News to Influence Elections Costs $400K

#74
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One counterargument to this reasoning is that many of his promises are for policies that, according to the best available evidence, are counterproductive. If the base consistently votes for things like “get tough on crime!” or “keep drugs illegal!” or “spend a lot of money building a giant wall!” or “institute a travel ban on questionable legal and national security grounds!”, I think there’s a strong case to be made…

The problem I see here is that your definition of counterproductive might not match mine. Maybe I think punishment is important for moral reasons so longer prison sentences are something I favor. That's not exactly a logic level issue, that's not a media issue, that's a moral decision I've made. Just because my view of the world differs from yours doesn't make it less valid, maybe I made a decision based on my consci…

If we’re making decisions that could have been predicted, on the basis on known scientific evidence, to lead to measurably worse outcomes, I’d argue that does indeed make those decisions less valid.

There’s a troubling tendency these days to discredit scientific expertise, or to mischaracterize it as partisan. It’s insane to imagine that we can forever hide behind arbitrary (and, often, deeply problematic) value systems to ignore the available expertise, knowledge, and data. You can't move water uphill with morality.

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