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Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

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Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#71

Post by eeZah7Ux »

mtgx wrote: post #47
pm90 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how/whether increasing the defense budget would help the German economy. Let me just say right away, that I am in no way advocating for increasing the supply of arms and ammunition in the world, which already seems to be at dangerous levels. However, if Germany invested as much in military R&D and a domestic arms industry, I wonder if that would boost the economy as it has done in the US. Also, the immigrati…

I don't think it's as much the fact that the US invested in the military sector as it is the fact that the US invested in something. What I mean by that is that yes, the US likely benefited from investing trillions of dollars in the military. But it could've also benefited, perhaps even more so, if it had invested trillions of dollars in infrastructure. This would have made it easier and cheaper for businesses to shi…

> investing trillions of dollars in the military

These are sometimes covert handouts though inflated costs.

> But it could've also benefited, perhaps even more so, if it had invested trillions of dollars in infrastructure

...still, military power and influence plays a big part part in international negotiation.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#72

Post by tiatia »

izacus wrote: post #26
buro9 wrote: post #11

Wow, that's a pretty appalling article. Seems to avoid even mentioning the desire of most of Europe to try and learn from what went wrong after the Great War. In 1918-1930 Germany was left so weakened by peace treaties that the seeds were sown for WW2. Post-WW2 the allies felt that a Germany crippled would only bring future wars, and a huge co-ordinated effort to build a sustainable industry and economic growth was p…

> (most of Germany's industrial capability had been destroyed or damaged) Tony Judt in Post War ( https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29658.Postwar ) actually claims that this is patently false. That Germany actually came out of WW2 with most of its industry intact (it was away from the most bombed cities and majority of fighting actually happened in France/Poland/USSR) and was in significantly better shape than Frac…

I think peak war production was end of 44.

But in the end this is not extremely relevant. They still had the knowledge.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#73

Post by dejv »

samfisher83 wrote: post #67

I think this is a big contributor: A further pillar of the Hidden Champions’ competitive strength is the unique German dual system of apprenticeship, which combines practical and theoretical training in non-academic trades. The Hidden Champions invest 50% more in vocational training than the average German company. I think a 4 year college degree does not make sense for a lot of jobs. It just puts students with more…

We have similar educational system here in Czech Republic. There are numerous pros and cons. Basically at the age of 15 you have to choose what you want to do with your life as changing careers are not that simple. And lets be honest, most of 15 years old kids have no idea what they want to spend rest of their life doing.

I did take this technical route (focusing on electronics, computer networking and programming) and it give me some edge when I started my CS degree, but further study of medicine, law or even art is out of question as I don't had any theoretical basics for those majors. All I study during my high school was mathematics, physics and specialised subjects.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#74

Post by [deleted] »

Pica_soO wrote: post #63
buro9 wrote: post #11

Wow, that's a pretty appalling article. Seems to avoid even mentioning the desire of most of Europe to try and learn from what went wrong after the Great War. In 1918-1930 Germany was left so weakened by peace treaties that the seeds were sown for WW2. Post-WW2 the allies felt that a Germany crippled would only bring future wars, and a huge co-ordinated effort to build a sustainable industry and economic growth was p…

Okay, first things- first - no lessons where learned, nobody out of the good of their hearts did anything for anybody. The original plan after world war 2 was to turn Nazi Germany into a agrarian border stripe between the two emerging power blocks. This plan was put into action, and some starvation resulted from the dismantling and moving of the factories. The reason this changed is because the cold war tensions, mad…

[deleted]

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#75

Post by lispm »

crdoconnor wrote: post #45
pluma wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason this is downvoted is that the situation in Germany is relatively unchanged since before the Euro was introduced. Saying German success is mostly based on the Euro is a great narrative but completely ignores the reality that Germany's economy was already strong and getting stronger in the decades before that. That's not saying Germany doesn't benefit from the Euro today or that it wouldn't be profou…

"Saying German success is mostly based on the Euro is a great narrative but completely ignores the reality that Germany's economy was already strong and getting stronger in the decades before that." Which part of "it wasn't just the Euro, reunification had the same effect" was I unclear about?

> Which part of "it wasn't just the Euro, reunification had the same effect" was I unclear about?

West Germany was before the Euro and before the reunification economically strong.

It was the world's largest exporter in 1986, 1987, 1988 and 1990. Around 1960 Germany was already second largest exporter in the world.

Reunification was in October 1990.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#76

Post by thesumofall »

mbid wrote: post #64
thesumofall wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Max Weber has you covered: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the... However, the German economic powerhouses are the Southern states - all of which are predominantly Catholic

In Baden-Württemberg (the South Western state), 37% are catholic and 33% are part of the official evangelical church, with likely a few in smaller protestant groups. Likewise for franconia, which is mostly within the state of Bavaria.

I'm not the one in this thread claiming causation but if there is correlation it is in Germany almost certainly between Catholicism and economic output rather than Protestantism: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Römisch-katholische_Kirche_i...

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#77

Post by lispm »

crdoconnor wrote: post #6

He missed the main reason: currency suppression. Germany has managed to suppress the value of its currency over the years to make its exports artificially cheap, which encouraged growth, creating manufacturing jobs. It did this firstly through reunification (dragging down the value of the DM) and subsequently by joining the Euro (Southern Europe had the value of their currencies pegged higher than their 'natural' val…

Germany was already the world's second largest exporter in 1960. With the DM.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#78

Post by tiatia »

Germany's real secret is that they don't pay their engineers.

An engineer, even with a PhD from a world class university, makes around 55k. Even in cities like Munich they will laugh about you if you request 60k.

Sure, if you have tons of experience, industry contacts etc., maybe more SOMETIMES. But let's get back to the 55k. A short internet search (www.nettolohn.de) tells us this is approximately 2600 Euro net pay per month. And this is for a full time job that is likely very stressful and comes with tons of responsibility. An English teacher in China (Shanghai, Beijing) can make 3000 Euro net a month.

Even if you claim my numbers are a bit off. It gives you an idea.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#79

Post by tiatia »

"I don't understand why this comment is being down voted."

Because most readers on hackernews are left wing idiots and teenagers?

"Germany has managed to suppress the value of its currency"

Actually, Germany did not suppess it's currency. But France basically insisted it gives up the "Deutsche Mark" in exchange for the reunification. This had the, in back-sight obvious but at that time unexpected side effect, that other European countries could not devalue anymore. In combination with quite low wages it makes the current German industry very successful.

Re: Why Germany Still Has So Many Middle-Class Manufacturing Jobs

#80

Post by tiatia »

lispm wrote: post #77
crdoconnor wrote: post #6

He missed the main reason: currency suppression. Germany has managed to suppress the value of its currency over the years to make its exports artificially cheap, which encouraged growth, creating manufacturing jobs. It did this firstly through reunification (dragging down the value of the DM) and subsequently by joining the Euro (Southern Europe had the value of their currencies pegged higher than their 'natural' val…

Germany was already the world's second largest exporter in 1960. With the DM.

There is nothing bad in being a large or the largest exporter. Germany exported a lot and imported a lot. But recently this had led to the absurd situation, that Germany exports both, goods AND capital: https://www.querschuesse.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/1a18....

This is not sustainable.

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