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An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

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Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#71

Post by dboreham »

danielweber wrote: post #64
ekidd wrote: post #42

I've worked as a consultant for years. I occasionally employ a lawyer to review contracts with my clients. As a general rule of thumb, I'll only work for a client under one of three circumstances: 1. The client's standard contract is reasonable. This is rare. 2. The client's standard contract is unreasonable, but they're willing to cross-out or rewrite the objectionable bits before signing. This is very common. 3. It…

In my experience, it's very unusual for a company to simply state that it won't talk about it at all. I get one of these two patterns: 1. "Oh, okay, we see your point. We'll cross out clauses X and Y." 2. "Oh, thank you, we'll take this very seriously. Now we will have people talk at you for hours about why you can trust us and everyone else here was dumb enough to sign up."

In my career I only had one case of #2. The person called me and said something like "if a partner isn't willing to sign agreement X, then we shouldn't be doing business with them". I said "ok" and hung up.

An hour later that guy's bosses boss called me to apologize..

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#72

Post by ransom1538 »

I get the whole 'this isn't fair argument.' But these contracts impact peoples livelihood so I will attempt to help.

First, don't respond to HR with a complex set of legal questions. They wont know the answer and will push back -- corporate attorneys will charge astronomical amounts and these questions could even get the board involved -- which the CEO usually doesn't want to do.

My suggestions:

1) The strike: Print the document, strike out what you don't want. Scan it, return it to the HR dept. with, "Hey cool signed!". Only do this if you are pretty senior.

2) The re-write: Take the document rewrite it, with the statements you don't like removed, then return it to HR with, "Hey cool signed!"

3) The 'it is coming!' (for junior guys):

Take the email and delete it. Say you never got it. They will resend it, take it and place it into your spam folder, two weeks later say you never got it. Then reply back with your w9 two weeks later. Then if they complain reply with a w9 3 weeks later. Continue until you have clout then do 1 or 2.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#73

Post by salvar »

dqv wrote: post #24

I'm not trying to defend gigster (broad indemnification clauses are bad news), but if someone framed those questions to me that way, I would also be hesitant to respond to them. It raises the "I'm going to be a handful" alarm. So, I understand why they were hesitant to respond and didn't want to comment on it.

How would you have framed the questions? The seem reasonable to me.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#74

Post by pricechild »

ex_amazon_sde wrote: post #57
therealmarv wrote: post #6

I recently learned from a github discussion that if you work for Amazon, Google etc. you are also not allowed to work on any open source projects, even on your free time without their permission.

Ex Amazon employee here: Amazon requires employees to obtain written permission even to contribute in your free time and this makes many developers unhappy. However the company does not claim copyright or patents on work-unrelated ideas and (closed-source) projects.

What happens if you don't obtain permission?

Do you get fired, or do they claim ownership?

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#75

Post by eeZah7Ux »

dqv wrote: post #24

I'm not trying to defend gigster (broad indemnification clauses are bad news), but if someone framed those questions to me that way, I would also be hesitant to respond to them. It raises the "I'm going to be a handful" alarm. So, I understand why they were hesitant to respond and didn't want to comment on it.

> It raises the "I'm going to be a handful" alarm.

That's how you select people who either don't bother reading contracts or too afraid to question a company policy in fear of not getting a job.

Both behaviors are not what you would expect from a good and self-respecting developer.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#76

Post by teh_klev »

shshhdhs wrote: post #49
zoner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have it too. It would have been impossible to change, I was given a template contract and I do have side projects outside of my work. On the day I leave the job because my side project is making enough money, I would not be very nervous about it. How would they know? I also have something like "should not work in similar area within The UK". Again, how would they know? This conflicts with data protection act, there…

Wouldn't they be able to find that out from LinkedIn or social, for perhaps the majority of tech people? Not saying that you use social media, but it's possible they find out.

I think if you've got any sense then you'd leave your LinkedIn profile unchanged until the exclusion period in your contract runs out. The "non-compete" clauses in mine have always been around 2-6 months, they were never enforced. I binned LinkedIn so it's not a problem for previous employers to spy on me, and my social media content never mentions anything about work things.

For other social media then just keep your nose clean and stick to posting content and discussing stuff that doesn't mention work.

But that said unless you stole your previous employer's crown jewels (customer lists, source code, IP etc) then these clauses would get thrown out if you were taken to court. Imagine a Volkswagen car dealership trying to limit, contractually, the employment opportunities of their mechanics or sales people from moving down the road to the Ford dealership for better hours/pay/commission. They'd be laughed out of the court room I think.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#77

Post by jblok »

TamDenholm wrote: post #32

I do contract work a lot in the UK through recruitment agencies. I very often provide feedback like this, especially when i'm asked to opt-out of the agency regulations. I never opt out, every single time i get the a response along the lines of "In my 20+ years of recruiting we've never had any problems with the contractor not opting out of the agency regulations, you're the first person to ever do that. Can i ask wh…

What are your reasons for declining to opt-out, out of interest?

I looked into this law (the actual wording of the law itself even) and found it to be mostly harmless. I also came across the wording which nullifies the entire regulation from being enforced if you opt-out after an introduction, which happens in 99% of cases, so I wasn't too worried.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#78

Post by anexprogrammer »

TamDenholm wrote: post #32

I do contract work a lot in the UK through recruitment agencies. I very often provide feedback like this, especially when i'm asked to opt-out of the agency regulations. I never opt out, every single time i get the a response along the lines of "In my 20+ years of recruiting we've never had any problems with the contractor not opting out of the agency regulations, you're the first person to ever do that. Can i ask wh…

I don't think I ever signed an agency contract without heavily adjusting some clauses.

I would simply state I can't sign as is. The only times I got pushback (rare) an annotated letter from accountant or PCG (now IPSE I think) contract review and the agency buckled. I also demanded proof that the agency-client contract matched on IR35 terms. Was never once caught by it.

Does the agent want to lose commission? Does the agency want me telling the client direct why I've changed my acceptance?

I realise regulation and the market has changed some since I last contracted, hmm, 8 or 9 years ago. Still can't imagine signing any agency contract as-is, they were always horribly one-sided affairs.

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#79

Post by logfromblammo »

ransom1538 wrote: post #72

I get the whole 'this isn't fair argument.' But these contracts impact peoples livelihood so I will attempt to help. First, don't respond to HR with a complex set of legal questions. They wont know the answer and will push back -- corporate attorneys will charge astronomical amounts and these questions could even get the board involved -- which the CEO usually doesn't want to do. My suggestions: 1) The strike: Print…

Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first. But in my experience, documents like these don't even have a signature line for anyone other than you. So long as you are just unilaterally agreeing with yourself, you can agree to anything you like. You can write in that you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month!

I wonder why companies even delude themselves into thinking such things are enforceable without a real, negotiated, two-party contract, with valuable consideration given by both sides.

It's essentially just signing the document that says, "I have read the corporate handbook, including the company policy on X." If you violate the policy on X, their remedy is to dock your pay or fire you from the company. They can't lawfully enforce anything in court. (Which isn't to say that they won't ever win. The courts tend to favor those willing to pay the most to win.)

Re: An Email Thread Between a Developer and Gigster

#80

Post by ransom1538 »

logfromblammo wrote: post #79
ransom1538 wrote: post #72

I get the whole 'this isn't fair argument.' But these contracts impact peoples livelihood so I will attempt to help. First, don't respond to HR with a complex set of legal questions. They wont know the answer and will push back -- corporate attorneys will charge astronomical amounts and these questions could even get the board involved -- which the CEO usually doesn't want to do. My suggestions: 1) The strike: Print…

Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first. But in my experience, documents like these don't even have a signature line for anyone other than you. So long as you are just unilaterally agreeing with yourself, you can agree to anything you like. You can write in that you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month! I wonder why companies even delude themselves i…

"Note that you can't do #2 if an officer of the company signs it first." NEVER EVER seen this. Hell. I have never seen two signatures on anything in 12 years. AND I always add "you're going to treat yourself to ice cream on the first Friday of every month!" -- obviously. The point is no one checks - HR just wants to thumbs up.
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