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Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#71
post #58
post #54

The current canon of legal psychiatric drugs won't ever cure the underlying issue that causes the symptoms. The only things that come close to that are the psychedelics -- psilocybin, MDMA, LSD, etc. They have been outlawed but of course, the underground therapy community has been keeping them alive and we should see legalization for the treatment of things like PTSD within the next 5 years.

They talk about these uses on almost every episode of the Joe Rogan Experience. He has a lot of researchers on who describe their usage of psychedelics to treat depression in particular. They describe it as "brain reset" or more like a chance for people to stick their head out of the fog, giving them the opportunity to see how they're stuck in a negative cycle. I just wonder if it's like a Tony Robbins seminar, super…

The problem with "curing depression" as a whole is that it's a complex syndrome with multiple causes, and our understanding of the brain is very primitive at this point.

I kind of think that many recreational psychedelics are both over-hyped by advocates and over-demonized by naysayers. Recreational experiences are fine and dandy, but I haven't seen much evidence so far that serotonergics do anything for depression. MDMA for PTSD remains experimental (worth a study I'm sure though).

One psychedelic is an exception: the observation that ketamine actually rapidly helped some depressed patients has sparked a whole lot of research in the last decade, has led many to question the whole monoamine hypothesis behind current depression treatment, and may lead to non-psychedelic treatments that work better (or at least on a different subset) than SSRIs. (http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/2170865...).

So, if you are a fan of the psychedelic experience and want to try something a bit out of the medical norms to alleviate depression, the ketamine clinic has the most medically backed potential at the moment, in my opinion (although I'll add that from what I understand ketamine clinic treatment is not at all similar to recreational usage as the dosage is much less). Alternatively, you could wait for the non-psychedelic versions or even rather unrelated derivatives (mentioned above) to progress, that for all we know might actually be better in the end. As the Economist article rightly alludes to, the brain is a seriously complex organism, and science has not reached a neat simple conclusion about depression yet.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#73
post #67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a practicing physician with 2 years of graduate level course work in neuroscience. Point 3 and 4 are wrong. There is no evidence that SSRIs work by fixing a chemical imbalance. There are multiple metananlyses in top tier journals that indicate that SSRIs have an irrelevant clinical effect. SSRIs are almost all placebo with the downside of causing serious side effects. The small effect that isn't due to placebo i…

I know these things from a friend who is a doctor and works with these neurotransmitter tests since about 10 years. I asked her how accurate these tests were and she said that, while you can't read everything off a sheet, there are patients, where she can already guess the result of the tests from the bodily symptoms the patient is describing (energy level at which times of the day, feeling of hunger, insomnia etc.).…

There is no evidence for the chemical imbalance hypothesis. Your friend anecdotal evidence is contradicted by a large body of emprical research. For a good overview of the evidence on SSRIs on depression I would recommend the article "antidepressants and the placebo effect". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/?report...

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#74
post #56
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, as someone who was on SSRIs for a long time at high dosages, they definitely do something, but the issue is less whether the drugs do anything and more what you do during that time. Personal experience with Sertraline - it doesn't make you happy or feel better or anything. It just numbs you, and you're really susceptible during this time. It's part of the reason why therapy is also really important in addition t…

> In the case of true chemical imbalances like it's suspected I have, during this time you help find non-drug related coping mechanisms. Finding ways to help create a strong positive part of your life so the imbalances are offset and don't hit as hard. A lot of this comes just through therapy or at least a counselor while you work. We wouldn't say the same if it was your arm was broken... "You can just come up with n…

When I broke my foot the first line of treatment was a boot and it was only after that failed that I had to get surgery.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#75
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They talk about these uses on almost every episode of the Joe Rogan Experience. He has a lot of researchers on who describe their usage of psychedelics to treat depression in particular. They describe it as "brain reset" or more like a chance for people to stick their head out of the fog, giving them the opportunity to see how they're stuck in a negative cycle. I just wonder if it's like a Tony Robbins seminar, super…

The problem with "curing depression" as a whole is that it's a complex syndrome with multiple causes, and our understanding of the brain is very primitive at this point. I kind of think that many recreational psychedelics are both over-hyped by advocates and over-demonized by naysayers. Recreational experiences are fine and dandy, but I haven't seen much evidence so far that serotonergics do anything for depression.…

This is an excellent comment and reflects the current state of research.

There is good evidence for the efficacy of ketamine in treatment resistant depression.

The psychedelics are not well studied.

SSRIs are not useful and may be harmful.

ECT works but causes amnesia.

Most depression gets better on its own.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#76
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are over stating the case for what stimulants can do in ADHD. They probably do make kids more docile. They do not improve grades over a meaningful time span. They do not improve broad and important outcomes like graduation rate (there is some evidence that ADHD kids on stimulants have lower graduation rates than ADHD KIDS that aren't medicated), increase earnings, or decrease chance of going to prison.

Can you cite that? You're opposing mainstream medication usage all over this thread, so it's hard to take each comment as gospel.

As a sufferer myself, what he's claiming is along the lines of 'stopping blood loss has never been proven to meaningfully affect health'. The difference on and off meds is night and day, between 'brain-scrambled mess' and 'actual thinking human being'

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#77
post #67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a practicing physician with 2 years of graduate level course work in neuroscience. Point 3 and 4 are wrong. There is no evidence that SSRIs work by fixing a chemical imbalance. There are multiple metananlyses in top tier journals that indicate that SSRIs have an irrelevant clinical effect. SSRIs are almost all placebo with the downside of causing serious side effects. The small effect that isn't due to placebo i…

I know these things from a friend who is a doctor and works with these neurotransmitter tests since about 10 years. I asked her how accurate these tests were and she said that, while you can't read everything off a sheet, there are patients, where she can already guess the result of the tests from the bodily symptoms the patient is describing (energy level at which times of the day, feeling of hunger, insomnia etc.).…

I think you should both stop here.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#78
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are over stating the case for what stimulants can do in ADHD. They probably do make kids more docile. They do not improve grades over a meaningful time span. They do not improve broad and important outcomes like graduation rate (there is some evidence that ADHD kids on stimulants have lower graduation rates than ADHD KIDS that aren't medicated), increase earnings, or decrease chance of going to prison.

Can you cite that? You're opposing mainstream medication usage all over this thread, so it's hard to take each comment as gospel.

SSRIs don't have clinically relevant effects. The following study is a review article. It cites most of the meta analysis the are relevant.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4172306/?report...

I am still trying to find the studies that indicate that stimulants might increase high school drop out. But there is pretty clear consensus that they don't increase grades over the long term.

https://www.nber.org/papers/w19105

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#79
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you cite that? You're opposing mainstream medication usage all over this thread, so it's hard to take each comment as gospel.

As a sufferer myself, what he's claiming is along the lines of 'stopping blood loss has never been proven to meaningfully affect health'. The difference on and off meds is night and day, between 'brain-scrambled mess' and 'actual thinking human being'

I also was diagnosed with ADHD and took Ritalin then Adderall for years. I stopped taking them in medical school and actually got better grades.

Regardless of my personal experience or your personal experience the evidence does not show that stimulants increase grades in the medium or long term.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, can the lack of serotonin really be the main, or only cause of depression ? If people with sufficient serotonin levels can get depression, then how can we argue that the actual increased seratonin levels is what helps people recover from it ? It seems like a quite strange argument to me.

Because depression, like most psychological diagnoses, is defined as a pile of symptoms, not as a specific illness like the flu. We don't know all the different things that can cause depression. One of the things that we're reasonably sure can cause depression is decreased levels of serotonin. That doesn't mean there's not other things which cause more-or-less the same set of symptoms. EDIT: On a note related to your…

Do you have a citation for your claims? Specifically that low serotonin levels CAUSE depression in humans?
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