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Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SSRIs have always been controversial. Some studies claim they're rarely more effective than placebos, but more often than not they're effective enough with a pretty safe profile, this article not withstanding. The safe profile is one of the reasons they're probably over prescribed, along with the high profitability. Many doctors give them out like candy, even though many people probably don't suffer from the phys…

In the UK they don't give them out like candy. Are you talking about US doctors?

I can confirm it's the case in France and Belgium.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#32
post #13

Dr. Peter C Gøtzsche: Psychiatry gone astray. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiJcSoo3C4Q

Thanks. Here is his article that he is talking about: http://davidhealy.org/psychiatry-gone-astray/

Along these lines (overprescription, overdiagnosis, disease mongering) "Saving Normal" by Frances Allen may be a good read as well.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#33
post #22
post #6

Some thoughts from someone who's been prescribed anti depressants in adolescence but never took them because I believed the doctor misdiagnosed: * Do these drugs genuinely help or is it just a strong placebo response? * If the anecdotal evidence increases the odds from 1 in 100 to 1 in 4, would this be considered normal in medicine? Of course the symptoms could be attributed to the wrong thing here but they sound pre…

I can't comment on anti-depressants, but for a similar case (ADHD meds), where societies attitudes regarding meds are similar. ADHD has by far the most successful medical treatment of any mental illness. Something like 90% of cases get positive response out of medication, with 35-40% of people having all their symptoms handled. My understanding is that for treatment of clinical depression, medication helps around 75%…

>There's a lot of research showing the positive effects of medication (and in ADHD's case, the futility of non-medication-based treatments), but there's still a major fight for acknowledging the validity of this form of treatment.

Is this really relevant considering the extremely rapid rise in prescription and use of ADHD medication?

In my anecdotal experience with friends who take these pills, they very quickly create a reliance on the substance and have significant side effects in the long term. I honestly believe they can be quite harmful to a person's mind.

Now, for ADHD there unfortunately aren't good non-medication treatments. But depression is a completely different matter - making lifestyle changes as simple as going for a hike every weekend can easily be as effective or more effective than any medication.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#34
Just a couple of unordered facts here, because discussions about this topic tend to get very confused:

1. Serotonin is a very basic, very old transmitter found in all bilateral animals. Humans have two sites of serotonin-production, one in the body, one in the brain. 90% of serotonin resides in the body.

2. Serotonin in general regulates "activity". It affects hunger, gut-movement, sleep, cell-growth, mood, body-temperature, blood-pressure and many other things. Any drugs changing serotonin-levels also affect these areas, that is why there are so many adverse effects.

3. SSRIs help exactly one group of people: those who have too low levels of serotonin. When their serotonin is boosted, circuits in the brain like the connection between thoughts and emotions start to work properly, hence they get more in touch with themselves.

4. People who have too little serotonin can show the exact same symptoms like people whose serotonin levels way too high (!!). Prescribing SSRIs to those people will worsen their state and may even lead to life-threatening conditions.

5. The level of serotonin can be tested properly by exactly one method: laboratory blood/urine sampling, which costs a couple hundred dollars, but is available. These doctors generally also know about amino-acid therapy, which consists of nutritional supplements which help the body in manufacture the missing transmitter. This can lower the need for medication, but needs proper testing first.

6. People can have proper serotonin levels and still be sad/angry/depressed. The question still is which brain-circuit is malfunctioning. If the problem is the connection between emotions and thought, serotonin helps. If the malfunctioning circuitry concerns attention regulation [0], like with people who have a genetic disposition towards ADHD, then dopamine helps.

7. People can have all their neurotransmitters adjusted to proper levels and still not be perfectly well. We are talking about signalling inside mutable structures here. Changes in signalling affect the structure, changing the structure affects the signalling.

Fixing neurotransmitters makes someone able to use all of his brain. He still has to use it properly though, to get better.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontostriatal_circuit

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#35
post #28

I've been prescribed multiple SSRIs over the last decade. 5, by my count. I've also researched them pretty extensively for about the same time. They are a crap-shoot at best. The best that a knowledgeable and well intentioned doctor can do is prescribe them in a trial and error fashion, maybe with a tiny bit of guidance from prominence of patient symptoms. But it's largely just prescribe, wait 6 weeks, rinse and repe…

My wife went through a rough patch a little while ago and decided she was depressed. She had no problem getting SSRIs prescribed by the doctor.

She says as soon as she started taking them, she instantly felt better. No more randomly bursting into tears.

But, she is no longer the wife I had. Her conversation is so slow. She regularly forgets what she was talking about, repeats herself. Basic chores are just forgotten about. She drinks more than ever, has started smoking. Her diet is awful. If she can be bothered to eat it is probably a chocolate bar at lunch time. She has gained about 4 stones in weight.

She never took up the counselling that she felt she needed before starting on the SSRIs.

She tried cutting down on her medication a little while ago, but this made her incredibly paranoid. So instead she has had to increase it.

All I see from it is an ever decreasing spiral into ruin.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#36
This is perhaps getting a bit Luddite but in other news:

""" if you suffer a psychotic breakdown, your odds of complete, treatment-free recovery are much, much better if you are treated in a third-world country that cannot afford psychotropic medication """

https://aeon.co/essays/treating-acute-psychosis-with-drugs-c...

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#37
post #28

I've been prescribed multiple SSRIs over the last decade. 5, by my count. I've also researched them pretty extensively for about the same time. They are a crap-shoot at best. The best that a knowledgeable and well intentioned doctor can do is prescribe them in a trial and error fashion, maybe with a tiny bit of guidance from prominence of patient symptoms. But it's largely just prescribe, wait 6 weeks, rinse and repe…

My wife went through a rough patch a little while ago and decided she was depressed. She had no problem getting SSRIs prescribed by the doctor. She says as soon as she started taking them, she instantly felt better. No more randomly bursting into tears. But, she is no longer the wife I had. Her conversation is so slow. She regularly forgets what she was talking about, repeats herself. Basic chores are just forgotten…

Take her to a competent psychiatrist, maybe one that practices in a hospital. I've never come across a symptom/side-effect profile like that before. But at least some of them (I am not a psychiatrist etc. etc.) hint at bipolar disorder.

One of the (unfortunately common) ways people learn that they have bipolar is by being mis-diagnosed with unipolar depression, being prescribed SSRIs, and suddenly finding themselves experiencing 'dysphoric mania'. Not the "everything's great, let's have sex with random strangers" type, but rather the "let's destroy every piece of furniture in the house" type.

But I don't know your situation other than what you've described, and I'm definitely not qualified to tell you what to do. The best I think you can do is to get a second opinion from a competent psychiatrist.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#38
This is a subject I know well, not only as a multi-decade prescriber of antidepressants, and many other classes of medications for health/behavioral problems. I've also been prescribed such medications for my own conditions, so you could say I have a unique perspective, know the issues coming and going.

Of course antidepressants can cause side-effects as do all other types of drug treatments. It's inevitable, medication effects are extremely complex and unpredictable as interaction with body systems covers a huge gamut of possibilities. Furthermore, most effects of drugs haven't studied even when they are known and a great deal more is not known than is known.

Also bear in mind that drugs in the form prescribed may not be the the chemical that produces the biggest therapeutic effect. This is the phenomenon of active metabolites which are often the drivers of favorable and unfavorable effects.

So we see how quickly these factors yield immense complexity and the reason behind the fact that drugs often have a huge array of side-effects common and rare.

BTW a side-effect occurring in 1% of recipients is considered a common adverse event. 0.1% is infrequent. Maybe 0.01% is getting rare, but definitely not implausibly drug-related.

The bottom line is that taking several drugs even one at a time for more than a few days means there's a surprisingly high probability of have an uncommon or rare side effect. It's happened to me a handful of times, including a couple of pretty serious reactions.

Interesting when I tell my physicians about these reactions. There's a certain look they get on their faces, like "what are you talking about? You're kidding me, that really didn't happen, did it?" Well, yes doctor, it really did, as though I wouldn't know a bad reaction when it's there or I just made the whole thing up.

This is perfectly consistent with what patients reported to me over the years. A long time ago I'd come to believe that people weren't making stuff up, unusual side-effects are ultimately an everyday reality among patients and all reports of AEs must be taken seriously, exactly my policy I put into practice.

Remember this little rule, it will save everyone a lot of trouble: any drug can cause any side-effect at any time.

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#39
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't comment on anti-depressants, but for a similar case (ADHD meds), where societies attitudes regarding meds are similar. ADHD has by far the most successful medical treatment of any mental illness. Something like 90% of cases get positive response out of medication, with 35-40% of people having all their symptoms handled. My understanding is that for treatment of clinical depression, medication helps around 75%…

>There's a lot of research showing the positive effects of medication (and in ADHD's case, the futility of non-medication-based treatments), but there's still a major fight for acknowledging the validity of this form of treatment. Is this really relevant considering the extremely rapid rise in prescription and use of ADHD medication? In my anecdotal experience with friends who take these pills, they very quickly crea…

They can be harmful, but diagnosed ADHD/ADD is almost guaranteed to be harmful, maybe especially in todays society. More than doubled risk of depression is only one of the risks of the above diagnoses, and while many of the risks could be said to be more of a societal issue - at least in the beginning - they tend to cause actual health problems over time. Overprescription can always be an issue for any medication, but that's not really an issue with the medication itself is it ?

Re: Extreme side-effects of antidepressants

#40
post #30
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you think that SSRIs don't affect serotonin I didn't say that, I said that "increasing serotonin" is not why these drugs sometimes help people feel better. > Honestly, her coke habit is the lede here, Yes. In the long term, cocaine use wrecks the mitochondia, which contributes to exhaustion. The proper therapy in this case is to restore the mitochondria density. Etiology (" a branch of medical science concerned…

> I didn't say that, I said that "increasing serotonin" is not why these drugs sometimes help people feel better. Yes it is. Only some people don't have too little serotonine.

Then, can the lack of serotonin really be the main, or only cause of depression ? If people with sufficient serotonin levels can get depression, then how can we argue that the actual increased seratonin levels is what helps people recover from it ? It seems like a quite strange argument to me.
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