I've been saying this to my circle of friends and family for years. The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. I cannot understand why people think it's ok to rely on banks, resource companies, and manufacturing to hold up our economy. We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, b…
"We need to invest in growth sectors." Who exactly is this "we"? You personally can invest in whatever sectors you like, and so can your neighbours. How is that not enough?
Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
71–80 of 169 posts
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#72Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm from Quebec and I have to agree with you that it could easily be north america's Germany. There is a lot of very talented software developers in Montreal but a lot of them leave to get higher salaries or work for foreign companies that love the very low, government subsidized wages [1]. If the government invested all that money in small to middle sized local companies instead the province would be so much more pr…
As a non-Canadian software developer in Canada the brain-drain to the US via TN visas is strong. Most talented devs I have met in Canada are Americans that have left the US because of politics etc.
Not a single company I interviewed with was willing to even come close to US salaries. Everyone I know from school who's any good at all has already left for SF/Seattle/NYC and I'll probably be joining them soon.
I'm not sure how these Canadian companies expect to retain great talent when just across the border, developers can make more money after deducting all living expenses + taxes, than the entire pre-tax salary they're offering.
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'm seriously considering going back to SV. You do know that tech centers in the US are outliers and general policy in the US is basically the same as Canada, and other countries that have a large mass of natural resources, Australia for example. Mass exploitation of every resource in reach will make us rich. Or, to put it another way 'Drill baby drill.' Silicon Valley and those that think it's different live in a…
100% agreed. But that insulated bubble is tremendously helpful for growing from a little shitstorm of a startup into something potentially world-changing. Your odds are vanishingly low when it comes to succeeding in a startup. As a founder, you should do everything you can to stack the odds in your favour. Edit: I can't respond to your reply, so I'll do it here. It's not just about funding. It's about finding like-mi…
I think that if your main goal in your startup is to raise capital from tech investors then you are correct that SV is where you need to be.
But in terms of actually building a business in the early days where head-down heavy lifting is required, I don't really see what SV offers that Toronto or Montreal do not. There are countless brilliant people in the Canadian tech community if what you are looking for is discussion or mentorship.
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is short-sighted. Either way, the technology innovation will happen, and the jobs will be lost. The question is, does the innovation happen in your country, where some of the money sticks to your "fingers" through taxes and knock-on effects in the local economy? Or does it all go to SV.
Canada already has a strong software sector and programs to support all sorts of research and development (ie - SR&ED). I can't imagine where Canada fails to nurture a software industry...
So I think Canada has a long way to go before it can stop or reverse the brain drain in the software industry.
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is short-sighted. Either way, the technology innovation will happen, and the jobs will be lost. The question is, does the innovation happen in your country, where some of the money sticks to your "fingers" through taxes and knock-on effects in the local economy? Or does it all go to SV.
Canada already has a strong software sector and programs to support all sorts of research and development (ie - SR&ED). I can't imagine where Canada fails to nurture a software industry...
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#76We had a gov't for 10 years full of "Calgary-school" (Canada's right-wing ultra free market economic ideologues coming out of the University of Calgary econ/poli-sci program). They were overwhelmingly driven by an oil and gas agenda. From the gov't down to mutual fund investors, everyone was treating our economy like a one-trick pony, all oil and gas. If you listened to people talk, Alberta's oil sector was supportin…
I'm from Quebec and I have to agree with you that it could easily be north america's Germany. There is a lot of very talented software developers in Montreal but a lot of them leave to get higher salaries or work for foreign companies that love the very low, government subsidized wages [1]. If the government invested all that money in small to middle sized local companies instead the province would be so much more pr…
How exactly is anyone helped by money taking a round trip through the government rather than the same thing happening through free markets? You've made the cycle slower, you've made the recipients dependent on government bureaucratic decisions (who are not well-incentivized to decide well), and have reduced incentives for efficiency. And you've gained nothing.
Don't get me wrong. Government has important roles to play in our economy and society. We need government to create basic infrastructure, create regulations encouraging public goods, provide a stable system of law, and so on. But unless you are serving some legitimate purpose, channeling daily economic activity through the government is a net loss compared to doing the same through private enterprise.
Quebec being full of people who believe that the economy should go through the government seems to be its second largest economic mistake, and one it is still making on a large scale. People like you complain about the predictable results of this mistake, but don't see that it is a mistake.
Quebec's largest mistake was, of course, Bill 101. That made your province so hostile to anglophones that 1/3 of them "voluntarily emmigrated" within a few years. (The ones I know are inclined to dispute how voluntary that emmigration was...) They took with them the headquarters of many major companies, the associated jobs, and the general economic activity that would have come from those professionals spending locally. This is why, for example, The Bank of Montreal is now headquartered in Toronto.
There is a collective blind spot in Quebec to the true cost of this for your society. Major companies need to have a stream of professionals moving to their headquarters from elsewhere because that is how you move up in the hierarchy. If you have made professionals unwilling to move to Quebec (for instance by forcing their children to receive education in a language they don't speak), companies have to choose between moving headquarters or losing their most valued employees to competitors.
It proved to be cheaper to move headquarters. And they did. Quebec's economy has never recovered from this. (Though you did adjust your ethnic ratio by enough that you nearly managed to get a 50% vote to secede in the 90s...)
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#77Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed on the brain drain. Toronto is a major (and expensive) world city. From talking with friends, 100K (Canadian, that's 70K US) is the ceiling for intermediate to senior developers. Junior devs make a lot less ... 50-60K (that's 35 to 42K US)! That said, free healthcare counts for a lot. Also, as a dev in a Canadian tech company, you are probably not going to see as much stress and volatility as your average Sili…
That salary ceiling is definitely one of the reasons I left for the states. Funny thing: that article goes to pains to point out that foreign investment into Canadian housing is a big issue, and I'm now watching the Toronto market, with the depressed exchange rate and looming recession, wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment. There are tricky factors surrounding when and what to buy,…
Why would you do this? There's been nothing but talk about a housing bubble, especially in Vancouver and Toronto. This seems like the worst possible time to buy property there, especially if you take any debt to do it.
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#78> No rational economist can look at the situation in Canada and say that "Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie" it's a ridiculous statement. Many "rational economists" have made that statement. Even the head of the Bank of Canada himself has suggested it is regrettable that our currency is so tied to oil. He can't openly criticize gov policy and so that's about as close as Poloz can g…
Anytime I see commentary that include words "rational," "logical," or the term "man of science" I know I'm at least dealing with someone reductionist, pedantic, and usually extremist or marginalized.
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#79We had a gov't for 10 years full of "Calgary-school" (Canada's right-wing ultra free market economic ideologues coming out of the University of Calgary econ/poli-sci program). They were overwhelmingly driven by an oil and gas agenda. From the gov't down to mutual fund investors, everyone was treating our economy like a one-trick pony, all oil and gas. If you listened to people talk, Alberta's oil sector was supportin…
Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie
#80It's more like Canada is sticking to the same old plans and is failing to adapt to a future where its economic cycles no longer work. Canada has what's known as Dutch disease. When the loonie is strong the natural resource sector booms since they get more value in return for selling these assets, however the services and manufacturing sector tend to fall off a cliff since labour cost become too high. Historically the…