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The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

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Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#71
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, get off this idea we don't put enough money into education. We put too much, so much so that they ended up hiring people other than teachers and the carry forward costs are too high. You want to fix education in the US, the money must follow the student. Until the school systems themselves are forced to improve by having students want to attend they won't. The recent issue with testing which they said was…

Of course it's a money issue. We pay teachers garbage for working harder than anyone else, who wants to do that job? If you got the A-types who go into finance or law or medicine into teaching you'd see a very different scenario play out. Right now it's essentially all-volunteer. People call it "a labor of love" but a double-time job paid at part-time wages is what they mean. Teachers don't make money or have respect…

If you were a CEO brought in to fix a failing company, would your first instinct be to say "The employees must suck! We need to fire all the employees and replace them with higher-paid ones!"?

Or would you say "I bet these employees are poorly managed. I'm sure they can work more effectively if we change aspects of the process."

Here's an idea that doesn't cost any money: segregate students by ability so that kids can learn at their own pace.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charter schools like Success Academy function by lottery so no cherry picking at all. And keep in mind it was started in Harlem not exactly the best base for the kids with the best resources. The reason why charter schools like Success Academy are popular is because it's strong focus and philosophy.

Every single student in that lottery had to be entered by a parent concerned about their education. That already presents a selection bias that will deliver better testing results than the entire student population.

My recollection from Freakonomics is they found that the children who lose the lottery still do as well as those who get in. The differentiating factor seems to be parents who care enough to enter the lottery in the first place.

Their research was based on magnet schools in Chicago in the nineties. I don't know how well that model correlates with Success Academy.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The lottery still has a selection bias, just less of one than outright cherry picking the best students. That being said, I'm not sure either of these are a problem. The real problem (one of them at least) is that a school's performance is measured by the student's scores on standardized testing.

The selection bias is those who want to sign up for the lottery vs. those who can afford to move into the area where their kids get zoned to the good schools. The selection bias of SA pales in comparison both purely by principle and in practice by the diversity of it's students.

>those who can afford to move into the area where their kids get zoned to the good schools

And who care enough to move (showing a massive parental interest in their child's education).

This is why using test scores to compare schools, be it charter vs. public in the same district or public vs. public in another district, is inherently flawed.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#74
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a lottery This is exactly what I meany by quasi-selection. The dat are absolutely clear on this question -- lotteries create a very nearly insurmountable selection bias. > public schools in NY are zoned so you have to live the right place to get your kid into the right school This is immaterial to the question of whether charter schools are more effective than public schools for reasons that are essential to their…

Please argue against things I have said instead of things I never said. I never said that charter schools was performing better I was saying that my SONS school was performing better despite being a lottery. If we can't at least represent each others claims properly I do not wish to partake in this discussion. No it's not immaterial whether someone can put their kids to a public school in Tribecca vs. Harlem.

> I never said that charter schools was performing better I was saying that my SONS school was performing better despite being a lottery.

Your comment started with "Again this is simply wrong", without specifying "this".

I assume you were refering to: "[charters are] selecting or quasi-selecting their student population".

So, my interpretation of your claim: "Charter schools that use lotteries out-perform, which means their performance is not attirbutable to student selection."

My response to this claim was that lotteries are a form of selection bias!, and that lotteries are exactly what I meant by "quasi-selection".

> Please argue against things I have said instead of things I never said.

I did respond to the substance of your comment. lotteries == selection bias, so a lottery school performing well isn't a sufficient answer to the problem of selection bias. (Also, if you don't want people to mis-interpret your comments, then don't open your comment with a dangling antecedent... saying "this is simply wrong" without saying what "this" is, is literally inviting people to interpret the thing to which you were referring.)

In other comments you've narrowed the scope of your claims to something about your child's specific school. If that's your intention, then Im not sure why you stared your comment with "this is simply wrong" when I clearly wasn't referring to your child's specific school, but rather was very clearly asserting a general statistical truth that applicable nationally and even internationally, regardless of the vagaries of a single individual event.

2. The back half of my comment was essentially: whether or not lottories are a form of selection bias, it's never-the-less the case that charter schools sometimes aren't evaluated in the same way as public schools, making it impossible to actually evaluate public vs. charter -- which is the central thesis of my comment.

> it's not immaterial whether someone can put their kids to a public school in Tribecca vs. Harlem.

Me: The charters vs public national comparisons are skewed comparisons in general because they're not being evaluated using equivalent metrics -- huge huge problem! Also, selection and quasi-selection bias.

You: Lotteries != selection bias. And there's another compounding variable -- income of student's parents!

Me: Lottories == selection bias. And yes, income or whatever is yet another thing we should control for when comparing public to charter. But in addition to controlling for these other variables, we need to -- at a minimum -- compare based on the same metrics. If charters don't have to take (the same) standarized tests, then controlling for every other variable in the world is pointless.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#75
Can we kill the "teachers aren't paid enough" heads in here? They are the weakest of all performing of all majors (http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick_hess_straight_up/2011/09...). Get a business degree and you can end up in Starbucks. Get a Ed degree, work less in college, and end up with an above average starting salary when you calculate in time off.

Or go STEM, work your butt off, and get paid well. These are grown up choices.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#76
post #71
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's a money issue. We pay teachers garbage for working harder than anyone else, who wants to do that job? If you got the A-types who go into finance or law or medicine into teaching you'd see a very different scenario play out. Right now it's essentially all-volunteer. People call it "a labor of love" but a double-time job paid at part-time wages is what they mean. Teachers don't make money or have respect…

If you were a CEO brought in to fix a failing company, would your first instinct be to say "The employees must suck! We need to fire all the employees and replace them with higher-paid ones!"? Or would you say "I bet these employees are poorly managed. I'm sure they can work more effectively if we change aspects of the process." Here's an idea that doesn't cost any money: segregate students by ability so that kids ca…

> Here's an idea that doesn't cost any money: segregate students by ability so that kids can learn at their own pace.

1. Don't see how you can claim that is a zero cost idea.

2. In practice this just becomes the smart kids, normal kids, idiots. Good luck once you get labelled an idiot.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#77
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which OP is that? You responded to comments from two accounts, which said: galby: "there are some truly awful charters out there" exelius: "To be fair, not all charter schools are for-profit, and there are good charter schools and bad ones. But the entire system stinks; it cuts funding to struggling districts, leaving them in a perpetual budget crisis." Neither say charter schools are categorically bad. Exelius's poi…

Exelius claim was that charter schools in general are bad but there are exceptions. He wasn't just attacking the funding system. Read his post again. You are ignoring his actual critique of the charter system. Galby and I agree, again I would urge you to actually read the exchange rather than cherry picking what you think they basically said. With regards to the past. No one is glorifying anything. But if you want to…

Exelius made three critiques. All are valid concerns, from what I can tell from various sources.

1) As far as I know, only one school principal has broken the $500k+ barrier, and that is a charter school principal from a failed school in Florida. I do not believe this specific detail was that convincing.

On the topic of graft, this is hard to pin down but it's not insignificant. See http://neatoday.org/2015/06/04/can-charter-schools-be-rescue... for one commentary:

> Some charter advocates may dismiss reports of malfeasance as the shenanigans of a few bad actors, but the Center for Popular Democracy (CPD) exposed the massive scale of the sector’s shoddy practices in a series of startling reports. In April, CPD revealed at least $200 million in 15 states had been squandered or misused through various activities – everything from the use of taxpayer funds to support other businesses to outright embezzlement. That total is probably higher, but, according to the report, it’s difficult to pinpont “because the federal government, the states, and local charter authorizers lack the oversight necessary to detect the fraud.”

If the books are private, it's hard to really tell if there's graft, no? At least with public schools it's easier to see where the money goes.

Charter school supporters should push for more transparency, as this veil of corporate secrecy makes a great target.

2) "Funding often comes directly from the local school district, most of which are already severely cash-strapped."

There's no question that this is true for many districts. For example, in Pennsylvania, the local public school system must reimburse charter schools based on their own per capita costs per student. Students on the autism spectrum are more expensive to teach, as are students who are emotionally disturbed. At Chester Uplands those students make up 8.4% and 13.6% of the student population, respectively. At one local charter school, those are 2.1% and 2.8% respectively, while at two other charter schools, those are 0%.

As a result, the school district sends more money to the local charter schools than it gets from the state, and may soon be bankrupt.

See http://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2015/08/pa-charter-vampir... for a summary.

In Ohio, according to this report http://innovationohio.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Unfair-... , "Because of the $774 million deducted from traditional public schools in FY 2012 to fund charters, children in traditional public schools received, on average, $235 (or 6.5%) less state aid than the state itself said they needed."

I therefore think this is valid critique by exelius about how charters are funded, independent of the quality of the education provided.

3) "Educational standards are different"

Isn't that also true? https://www.the74million.org/article/whitmire-5-ways-to-stop... comments, in defense of good charter schools, that opponents to charter schools have some valid arguments. One is:

> Identify the low bar, and enforce it.

> This is another lesson from California, which leads the nation in actively trying to boost charter quality. There is no agreement on what makes a great charter; depending on the student population being served, that will vary greatly. But there should be an agreement on the low end of the bar. So set that bar, and enforce it.

> That low bar has to be precise about what constitutes academic achievement.

If charters have a lower bar than public schools, then there's inventive to teach to that lower bar, which lowers cost for a charter school, and leads to profit for the charter owner rather than savings for the taxpayer.

I believe this a valid critique, though I do not know the evidence.

3b) "Also, most states offer some sort of funding incentive based on test scores -- which just encourages schools to play the numbers game by finding reasons to suspend/expel struggling students, encourage cheating on tests, etc."

There are any number of sources which say that the charter schools cherry pick students. There are any number of those which say the opposite. You can dismiss it the claim, but all evidence is that it's part of a valid critique of the charter system, and intimately tied with the funding question.

You commented: "and that charter schools are stealing things"

By stealing, do you mean violating the law? I liked this text from https://preaprez.wordpress.com/2013/02/15/in-chicago-98-mill... :

> When the story broke last week that Juan Rangel’s United Neighborhood Organization funneled $98 million dollars in state grants to friends and relatives of higher ups in the organization, Patrick O’Connor, Mayor Rahm Emanuel’s aldermanic floor leader said, “Nothing being reported means they’ve done anything illegal or improper. It might sound crude, but it’s kind of like picking your nose in public. It looks bad. It’s not classy. But it’s not illegal.”

Or do you mean the metaphorical sense, like "stealing a child's future"?

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#78
post #75

Can we kill the "teachers aren't paid enough" heads in here? They are the weakest of all performing of all majors ( http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick_hess_straight_up/2011/09... ). Get a business degree and you can end up in Starbucks. Get a Ed degree, work less in college, and end up with an above average starting salary when you calculate in time off. Or go STEM, work your butt off, and get paid well. These are g…

I think the "teachers aren't paid enough" thing is about the opposite of this. Its not that teachers would be better at their jobs if they get more money. Its that if you wan't to attract the type of people who currently go STEM instead of the people who currently major in education, you need to pay teachers more. Sort of a "you get what you pay for" type of thing.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The selection bias is those who want to sign up for the lottery vs. those who can afford to move into the area where their kids get zoned to the good schools. The selection bias of SA pales in comparison both purely by principle and in practice by the diversity of it's students.

>those who can afford to move into the area where their kids get zoned to the good schools And who care enough to move (showing a massive parental interest in their child's education). This is why using test scores to compare schools, be it charter vs. public in the same district or public vs. public in another district, is inherently flawed.

The difference is that you can have an interest in your childs education and have a chance to get in on a charter.

With zoned schools you can have an interest in your childs education and have no way of getting in simply because you can't afford it.

The point is that those who claim that charter schools get to pick the good students and leave the bad ones with the public schools are simply wrong. It's the public schools in the rich areas that get to pick their students simply by whether they can afford to live where they do or not.

Re: The Rise and Fall of For-Profit Schools

#80
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exelius claim was that charter schools in general are bad but there are exceptions. He wasn't just attacking the funding system. Read his post again. You are ignoring his actual critique of the charter system. Galby and I agree, again I would urge you to actually read the exchange rather than cherry picking what you think they basically said. With regards to the past. No one is glorifying anything. But if you want to…

Exelius made three critiques. All are valid concerns, from what I can tell from various sources. 1) As far as I know, only one school principal has broken the $500k+ barrier, and that is a charter school principal from a failed school in Florida. I do not believe this specific detail was that convincing. On the topic of graft, this is hard to pin down but it's not insignificant. See http://neatoday.org/2015/06/04/can…

His valid concerns are valid in the sense that they apply to some charter schools. They are not valid in the way he made good charter schools the exception and that was what I was reacting to.

It's really that simple.

Charter schools are publicly funded and privately run. If the public doesen't feel like the schools are living up to their promise they can simply stop the funding.

That some schools have been taking advantage of that situation says absolutely nothing about the charter school as an educational system or whether it's the fact that it's a charter school that makes it take money from the public schools. The primary thing for me is that you can fire bad teachers.

If anything it's the oversight with charter schools thats the problem not the funding. That can be solved.

You are cherrypicking your examples to try and defend what is fundamentally a wrong premise for why public school system is failing.

Thats your right to do so but it doesn't make the claims right and nothing you have provided here shows that.

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