Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for • Hacker News Board

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#691

Post by tekknik » Wed, May 31, 2023, 3:19 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #662

tekknik wrote: post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People just like the convenience, and cash is on its way out. My favorite question that many of the people on this site love to ignore, what about natural disasters? Do you believe CC terminals still work when the rest of the infrastructure has failed? Cash is far from on the way out, you’re being naive.

Sure, natural disaster occurs, then...maybe I have more things to worry about then having cash? If the POS is down at the store, the cell phone networks are surely down (since many POS these days are just cellphones attached to Stripe or similar), and I'm guessing your saying FEMA help won't come very soon, it will be everyone for themselves in the city? At least I won't be the only one suffering in such a DOOM scena…

> If the POS is down at the store, the cell phone networks are surely down (since many POS these days are just cellphones attached to Stripe or similar)

People have calculators that tend to work and be accurate outside a POS. Many people can do basic math and add tax, and you hand them cash. Is this hard to believe? It comes from an era where a POS didn’t exist.

> I'm guessing your saying FEMA help won't come very soon

FEMA, National Guard, etc, stand up critical infrastructure first. This means hospitals, not storefronts. They also only bring in limited food. They feed some, no where near all.

> come very soon, it will be everyone for themselves in the city

hardly, for one National Guard is patrolling. You’re purposely being reductive here.

> I also don't live in a place where natural disasters (like hurricanes) are very common. I imagine people in Florida or coastal Texas would have a very different view on things.

So you, knowing you lack experience, blatantly state cash is on the way out when you now state there are some uses? What is your point exactly? Because a few people don’t need cash in the US clearly nobody needs it?

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#692

Post by Supermancho » Wed, May 31, 2023, 4:17 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #664

onionisafruit wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that a postal carrier would be criminally liable for knowingly delivering a live bomb, but I think you’re wrong on the end part. There is no legal obligation to try to stop crimes you know about. In most cases there isn’t even an obligation to report them.

In most US states, it is illegal to fail to report a crime. This is usually a misdemeanor, but is a felony in some states and with some types of crime.

I'm gonna go ahead and claim that laws that incur a penalty for not reporting a crime, are not commensurate with legal obligation. Such a charge sounds like a plea bargain or additional-charges or inconvenience-a-witness tool, than a legal concern. The charges for failing to report a crime are subject to prosecution that includes due process (proof, legal prosecution, etc). It's nearly impossible to prove that you witnesses a crime you didn't report without some paper/video/interview trail. This is partly why you never talk to police without a lawyer, as it can get you caught up in such a charge by your own statements.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#693

Post by usernew » Wed, May 31, 2023, 4:20 AM UTC

autoexec wrote: post #677

usernew wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They key is, the payment processor would not know, because they should not have the ability to ask. What's needed here, is a replacement for cash. Nothing more, nothing less. The digital dollar wallet, with a number and a passcode that only you have. And you can send that to another wallet number. That is the scope, and the complete scope. Bitcoin w/o the blockchain. This should be provided by a government, not a ban…

> The court looked at the wife's toll records, showing she comes home from work real late, and that would impact the quality of life for kids. Boy, I bet she never thought she'd lose her kids by using a toll tag. Do you have a source for that? Google wasn't being helpful.

I unfortunately do not, as this was over 20 years ago. I guess "trust me" that it happened, because - again "trust me" - this was the thing that over 20 years ago got me to never take another toll road. I did give google a go as well, and after a full 45 seconds could not find it.

Here is an article https://www.wbez.org/stories/how-your-private-illinois-tollw...

"many of the requests for I-Pass records in civil matters were divorce cases"

This is from the first search result linked in the other reply.

"In child custody disputes, a parent who believes the other parent is not fulfilling their parental duties may use this data to establish the parent is not caring for the child. A parent may use the data to establish the other is not with the child, but instead on the road headed to a different location, such as a race track. The parent who believes the other is not meeting their obligations may be able to use this information during custody litigation or as support for a modification to an existing agreement"

"“We routinely utilize I-Pass records in discovery,” says Maureen A. Gorman, a divorce litigator at my Chicago law firm."

Now, let me spread some more anger, because let's face it, people love being angry. Road tolls were supposed to be temporary, to finance building the roads. They were never supposed to stay permanent. Toll revenue is more than road maintenance. In fact, over 50% of toll revenue, is redirected to other uses, and increases close to 100% per decade. Some of it is used for mass transit - so people in cars, pay for people on the subway. Many toll roads (and city parking meters, and red light and speed cameras) are run by private companies, with taxpayer-paid city staff enforcing that private corporation's profit.

What can you do? Only thing I've found is to not participate, at a great inconvenience to yourself. No, I don't use city parking meters. I pay way, way more, for private parking - although I'm only in a car a few weeks per year, usually in a work-paid rental. The benefit - for me - is to fall asleep fast, without laying there for hours in the dark getting more and more pissed off at things I can't fix.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#694

Post by pyuser583 » Wed, May 31, 2023, 4:41 AM UTC

JohnFen wrote: post #664

onionisafruit wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that a postal carrier would be criminally liable for knowingly delivering a live bomb, but I think you’re wrong on the end part. There is no legal obligation to try to stop crimes you know about. In most cases there isn’t even an obligation to report them.

In most US states, it is illegal to fail to report a crime. This is usually a misdemeanor, but is a felony in some states and with some types of crime.

Telecom workers with privileged access are instructed not to report crimes they overhear.

The training materials are approved by the federal government.

It’s technically a crime for them to repeat what they hear, including to law enforcement.

Some narrow exceptions apply, such as when the telecom company is committing a crime.

But technicians who have to listen in on calls (I don’t know if this is a thing anymore), are instructed to never report crimes they overhear.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#695

Post by tptacek » Wed, May 31, 2023, 5:42 AM UTC

usernew wrote: post #693

autoexec wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The court looked at the wife's toll records, showing she comes home from work real late, and that would impact the quality of life for kids. Boy, I bet she never thought she'd lose her kids by using a toll tag. Do you have a source for that? Google wasn't being helpful.

I unfortunately do not, as this was over 20 years ago. I guess "trust me" that it happened, because - again "trust me" - this was the thing that over 20 years ago got me to never take another toll road. I did give google a go as well, and after a full 45 seconds could not find it. Here is an article https://www.wbez.org/stories/how-your-private-illinois-tollw... "many of the requests for I-Pass records in civil matte…

People in cars should pay for people on the subway (or the El, in Chicago). Use taxes are efficient, and 294 should cost money to use.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#696

Post by kortilla » Wed, May 31, 2023, 8:06 AM UTC

tchaffee wrote: post #683

midoridensha wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They think they know. Many times, they're right too, but sometimes they're wrong. That's why evidence and due process are important.

Evidence and due process are important for convicting someone of a crime. You're not violating a basic human right when you deny a credit card transaction. The requirement for evidence and due process should be far lower, if even needed at all.

> You're not violating a basic human right when you deny a credit card transaction.

This doesn’t work when it’s something basic like payment processing. It’s the same reason we decided as a society that people can’t “trust their gut” and deny housing to people based on the color of their skin.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#697

Post by skinkestek » Wed, May 31, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #384

skinkestek wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLDR: it is a feature, not a bug Long version: I don't think Georgia has copied what I think of as the mistake of KYC, yet at least. I feel KYC regulations as they exist today are a big mistake, that does little good, more harm than good and causes a lot of extra work and annoyance. People always seem to think that de-anonymizing things will always make things better. As I get older I feel the more someone wants to k…

Perhaps expand on this into a blog post and post it here on HN...? Even if the ship has sailed on living in an identity-optional society, at least in most of the world, I still think it's good to record the benefits of such a society.

I can't do it from this account and I might not be the best writer to get the points through, but yes, someone should probably do it.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#698

Post by spaceman_2020 » Wed, May 31, 2023, 10:53 AM UTC

lottin wrote: post #635

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more scalable - querying a database and hitting "delete" on the payment channels of 100,000 people at a political rally, or hunting them down one-by-one across an entire country? You're applying this to individuals. Which is never the real threat to any regime. It's always large groups of people.

I think you're living in techno-fantasy land. "Deleting" people on a database achieves nothing. Look at how authoritarian governments actually work in the real world. An authoritarian government would simply arrest the leader of the opposition on made up charges, and then they would throw them in the jail. They don't have to go after everybody who disagrees with the government. They just go after a few of them, and t…

And your solution is to make it even easier for them to do all of the above by eliminating any way to transact privately?

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#699

Post by thesz » Wed, May 31, 2023, 11:38 AM UTC

neom wrote: post #690

thesz wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define extremists/terrorists, again. Be sure to define it in such a way that you can't be labeled as such in any cicumstances.

Why would I be sure to define it in such a way that I can't be labeled as such in any circumstance? I'm not afraid to work against my own self interest in the name of a better situation for the collective. What happened in Ottawa as a bunch of self-centered ego maniacs with extreme views terrorizing the people of that city. Never mind the bank accounts: they should have been jailed for life.

Up there you disagree with the (part of) collective and you show no intention to work against your self-interest or otherwise to work in the name of better situation of the (part of) collective.

Thank you for thoughtful and thought-provoking discussion with you.

Re: Pro-cash movement warns that people could be losing more than they bargained for

#700

Post by 3pt14159 » Wed, May 31, 2023, 12:42 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #85

3pt14159 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't be tracked If that were true, then criminal elements wouldn't need to severely launder their money. It's a spectrum. Cash can be tracked, each legitimate bill has a unique serial number, and yes, at least at present I haven't heard of private actors outside of those that service law enforcement tracking it, but the reality is that if you withdraw $8k to pay for a motorcycle and hand it to a guy that sells you…

I have to apologize, but you don't understand what the concept of "laundering money" means. It has nothing to do with tracking cash bills through serial numbers and it has never had anything to do with that. "Laundering money" means that criminals make transactions in order to use cash they have from their illicit gains within the general economy, ie get it into a bank account and being able to declare where they got…

You launder money to obscure the source of the cash. If you sell, for example, $200k worth of cocaine and you try to deposit it all through one of your fronts you will be caught.

This isn't difficult data science.