Labor shortage or terrible jobs? • Hacker News Board

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#691

Post by Aunche » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:21 AM UTC

atoav wrote: post #423

rbg246 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of companies have lots of money. These business have a model that relies on poverty wages changing the minimum wage will disrupt these businesses greatly and I don't see a problem with that. You can't keep a broken thing going because of the businesses that will have to change their model. But sorry I also see your point there needs to be help to business to change thei…

I don't see it. McDonalds pays minimum wages in most european nations, yet their menu isnt that much more expensive than in the US. Maybe they have a slimmer margin over here, but they are still profitable. That implies that the model is (in principle) just alright, but there are financial flows that will have to change in the US. Of course you don't like to pay more for the labor you use to generate profit — ideally…

Their menu may not appear much cheaper in the US, but McDonalds is much more aggressive with price discrimination here. You won't find the same promotions, value menu, and coupons in Europe.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#692

Post by karmasimida » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:29 AM UTC

iamflimflam1 wrote: post #690

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

There are plenty of countries who have had minimum wage for some time and have increased that minimum wage over time. So there have been lots of studies done on the impact of it. Here’s one: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... > This report includes the findings from a meta-analysis of the empirical UK national minimum wage literature. Similar to a previous UK minimum wage study by de Lind…

Even with minimum wages at 15 dollars, it is still hard to say this is a decent job, although this is the already among the highest globally.

The problem lies that the value of assets, especially housing etc, increase much faster than wages can catch up.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#693

Post by leesalminen » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:32 AM UTC

blihp wrote: post #665

deburo wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If they honestly can't afford to pay a living wage It's not logical to kill businesses by arbitrarily raising the minimum wage. Do you think the people they employ are better off not working at all? These people may not have a decent enough salary, but they get to work as opposed to staying at home and degenerate (mentally and physically). I always thought the better solution is to help them financially in other way…

If raising the minimum wage will do them in, they're already halfway there if things are really [1] that dire and will end up there soon enough. So yes, people are better off not working for those types of businesses. If a business can only remain solvent by paying unreasonably low wages, it puts downward wage pressure on competing businesses and traps unskilled workers in a labor pool of dead-end jobs with little ho…

> [1] I'm suspicious of the majority of cases where this claim is made. A rational business person would see that such a business is already marginal and that they would likely be better off shutting it down and redeploying the capital elsewhere for a better return. This happens all the time. If the owner can't see this, keeping the business on life support isn't doing anyone any favors.

I agree with you, I would never own a restaurant or bar personally. But profits are really ~10% for the average mom n pop restaurant. It's just how it is. So $1mm in annual sales makes you $100k, more or less. People like owning restaurants, despite their best financial interests.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#694

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:36 AM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #497

dragonwriter wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, someone who says “teenagers don’t need jobs in the status quo” comes from a place of privilege. Someone can recognize the status quo and yet believe that the needs it creates ought to be changed. There was a time younger children needed jobs to. The reason they did was largely because the fact that they could be employed drove down wages for adult workers. One who said children didn’t need jobs at that time would…

Well, maybe where we disagree is that I see being employed by someone you're not related to as being a valuable life experience appropriate for a teenager, especially if you have loved ones around to teach you how to get, keep, and (if need be) leave a job.

[deleted]

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#695

Post by chii » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:37 AM UTC

shkkmo wrote: post #642

chii wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UBI is really the only functional alternative to a minimum wage. i dont think that's true. re-education and re-training into higher value work is a better investment. it's just that education of adults isn't funded well by society, and thus the debt load for that re-education is too expensive for the benefit. I would argue that society should have a funding system where if you re-trained (may be in some category of…

Education and training is solving a different issue, one that is orthogonal to the one solved by minimum wage or basic income. I think making public colleges free (similar to germany) would be a massive benefit to our economy. But making all education free doesn't do anything to help remove the need for the minimum wage. If you have an alternative to the minimum wage that isn't UBI, I would love to hear it.

> one that is orthogonal to the one solved by minimum wage or basic income.

no it isn't orthogonal - UBI and minimum is based on the premise that there exists people who would not be able to produce value that is enough to sustain themselves (aka, they consume more resources than they produce), and thus need the rest of society to pick up that slack (otherwise, they'd just die).

I'm saying that people would always be able to sustain themselves if they are able to get trained to do something useful. As more knowledge is required in the modern day, this training becomes more expensive, and so society should make this investment, rather than place the entire risk onto the individual.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#696

Post by crossroadsguy » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:40 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> The problem for the business is that the financial model is set by the fixed or imperative costs

What about profit sharing?

Hire an employee who agrees to get 1K currency units if company (store, resto etc) made 100K CUs.

But 500 if company made 50K CUs and 50K CUs if store made 5000K CUs.

There's always a max cap, but never a min cap. When someone talks about min caps we all get antsy.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#697

Post by WarOnPrivacy » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #689

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because its effect would be a transfer of jobs from working class adults to middle class kids. Then corps would have to rewrite the application algorithms that serially discriminate against 1st time job applicants.

> Then corps would have to rewrite the application algorithms that serially discriminate against 1st time job applicants. Places that hire people at minimum wage mostly wouldn't have that problem for those positions

I know of no major corporations w/ a web application system, that do not discriminate against those w/o a job history. Pay does not seem to be a factor in this equation.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#698

Post by sdf131 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

Sebb767 wrote: post #266

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. She actually addressees this in the very last paragraph: > if a business can’t pay a living wage, should it be a business?

You get paid what you're worth, not what you need.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#699

Post by heterodoxxed » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit...

"The tendency of the rate of profit to fall (TRPF) is a hypothesis in the crisis theory of political economy, according to which the rate of profit—the ratio of the profit to the amount of invested capital—decreases over time. This hypothesis gained additional prominence from its discussion by Karl Marx in Chapter 13 of Capital, Volume III, but economists as diverse as Adam Smith, John Stuart Mill, David Ricardo and Stanley Jevons referred explicitly to the TRPF as an empirical phenomenon that demanded further theoretical explanation, although they differed on the reasons why the TRPF should necessarily occur."

Consider that if the rate of profit tends to fall, and shareholders require greater profits each quarter, how that affects "inputs" such as labor?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#700

Post by foota » Sat, May 01, 2021, 4:50 AM UTC

ep103 wrote: post #330

ozim wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine scenario where you have $100k and you can open a small restaurant, create jobs, maybe not best jobs but still some people will be putting food on the table with your help, some students will pay for their collage. But you count the costs and it turns out you will break even in 50 years or if anything goes bad never, like, one bad hire will drown you. You look at Google, Apple, Facebook stocks ... there is alw…

https://academictimes.com/economic-news-reporting-suffers-fr... No. News sources are focusing on business instead of labor's issues, because news statistically favors business interests, not labor's. If your hypothetical business owner is unable to start a business without paying a reasonable wage, then that business should not exist. And your hypothetical business owner should invest in Apple, Facebook, or otherwise…

"If this causes less business entrepreneurship, then so be it. A business that cannot pay employees is not a business that adds value to society, and nothing of value is lost. This is a fundamental tenet of capitalism, the same way we say that businesses that cannot sell their product also deserve to fail."

This is a false and dangerous, in that it ignores that the world isn't a free market, wage markets don't exist in a vacuum. Businesses might be able to pay higher wages if they weren't hindered by high rents, or if other restaurants raise prices in unison (e.g., in reaction to higher labor prices).

Just because a business can't pay a living wage in some setup doesn't mean it has no contribution.